Are you more concerned with the DL or the OL?

#51
#51
Rockytoptalker said:
He definitely wasn't the most mature guy in the world, and he choked under pressure a couple of times, but wouldn't it be a little bit more fair to place most of the blame on our defense rather than him?
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We weren't talking about placing blame. The defense under Dooley/Sunseri was absolutely pathetic and gave virtually no chance to win several games in 2012, I'll certainly give you that.

That being said, Bray had many, many opportunities to convert crucial late game 3rd downs, plenty of opportunities to lead game winning drives, plenty of opportunities to post a signature win with his QB play over a top rival....but he never did. Not 100% his fault for sure, but that's why he gets the bad rap IMO.
 
#52
#52
Darth_Shiveman said:
We showed no commitment to the run game in 2012. Even when we were running well we'd have 2-3 3 and outs a game where we had 3 passes in a row.

Even early in the Florida game when we were up on them and were averaging around 4 yards per carry we just abandoned the ground game. It was so frustrating to see our defense getting hung out to dry because our coaches didn't understand how to run some clock and give them a breather.

Our offense last season was pretty one sided also because our passing game was pretty poor, but our coaches at least attempted to keep the play calling balanced.

I think our offense being better this season will help out our defense a bit. Our OL worries me, especially the pass blocking at the tackle positions. However, I think we'll get be able to get a pretty decent push in the run game, and will probably see an increased output in the screen game to the extent that we'll be able to be fairly balanced and productive on offense.

Just reducing the number of three and outs will help the defense a bit. We should be more athletic overall in our starting 11 on defense this season, if a little soft in the middle. I think we'll be improved at DE between Maggit and Vereen. DT is a bit of an uncertainty, but AJ's strong suit is taking on guys and beating blocks in the middle.

In short, I think our weakness on defense will be at DT and we'll be improved on the edges of our defense a all levels. The uncertainty of the team at DT would worry me more if we didn't have AJ. Having better athletes on the edges will force things inside to him and that's what he excels at. I think the best case scenario for our defense is that they end up being a defense that bends a lot but has the athletes to not break and give up huge devastating plays. If they can manage to do that, we could pull off an upset or two and have the best season we've had in five or six seasons I think.
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I find it difficult to believe that Dooley of all people doesnt understand the importance of a run game. If randoms on a forum know it I'm sure the son of a National Championship winning SEC coach knows it. Better than any of us. Now whether or not he was in a situation to get it to be effective is a totally different argument.

chatt-townVOL said:
I think this is a bit of a stretch. I mean the examples you used are absolutely correct, our offense on several occasions didn't help the defense, especially when Chaney would freak out and abandon the run game, but an offense shouldn't have to score 40+ points to win a football game, ever. I blame Florida on the offense but UGA, MS State, Mizzou, and the disaster that was almost Troy were all the result of awful defense. More specifically an awful secondary.
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I really wish people would go back and watch '12 games without the Gruden Circle-Jerk Glasses on. The D gave the O opportunities in MS ST game too. They forced them to 3 straight punts, and the didn't do anything with it. Even fumbled the ball with like 7-8 mins left in the forth that would have closed the gap to 3-pts a whole 2mins earlier than we ended up doing so, and given us continued momentum. And in the Mizzou game how is it fair to put it all on the D when they held them to 21 until the last min of the game?? The O had multiple tomes to at least put up a FG, and we wouldn't have gone to OT. Y'all include the OT #s to make them look bad and blame it on a squad that played their hearts out even though they were depleted. At the end of the day after the '11 season people wanted games to be closer, and better fought. They were in '12, and if people were to watch the games they would realize it. The Gruden circle jerk, and the heartbreaking tease type games was not a good mix.

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Now to both of yalls "focusing on the run game" comments. It was confirmed on here by DeerPark (AD insider) that the coaching staff would get livid with Bray for not managing the game better. Not listening to them, and going rogue when they wanted to control the game clock with runs etc. And no we couldnt sit Bray like so many wanted to say back then when people like me would make mention of Brays bratty behaviour hurting the team. We can see now that Worley and Peterman weren't ready to take the job. The fact that Dooley had no other option at QB, thx Kiffin, was one of the biggest underlying issues during his era.
 
#53
#53
Oskie Volum said:
I find it difficult to believe that Dooley of all people doesnt understand the importance of a run game. If randoms on a forum know it I'm sure the son of a National Championship winning SEC coach knows it. Better than any of us. Now whether or not he was in a situation to get it to be effective is a totally different argument.



I really wish people would go back and watch '12 games without the Gruden Circle-Jerk Glasses on. The D gave the O opportunities in MS ST game too. They forced them to 3 straight punts, and the didn't do anything with it. Even fumbled the ball with like 7-8 mins left in the forth that would have closed the gap to 3-pts a whole 2mins earlier than we ended up doing so, and given us continued momentum. And in the Mizzou game how is it fair to put it all on the D when they held them to 21 until the last min of the game?? The O had multiple tomes to at least put up a FG, and we wouldn't have gone to OT. Y'all include the OT #s to make them look bad and blame it on a squad that played their hearts out even though they were depleted. At the end of the day after the '11 season people wanted games to be closer, and better fought. They were in '12, and if people were to watch the games they would realize it. The Gruden circle jerk, and the heartbreaking tease type games was not a good mix.

-----

Now to both of yalls "focusing on the run game" comments. It was confirmed on here by DeerPark (AD insider) that the coaching staff would get livid with Bray for not managing the game better. Not listening to them, and going rogue when they wanted to control the game clock with runs etc. And no we couldnt sit Bray like so many wanted to say back then when people like me would make mention of Brays bratty behaviour hurting the team. We can see now that Worley and Peterman weren't ready to take the job. The fact that Dooley had no other option at QB, thx Kiffin, was one of the biggest underlying issues during his era.
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Wow.
 
#54
#54
Oskie Volum said:
I find it difficult to believe that Dooley of all people doesnt understand the importance of a run game. If randoms on a forum know it I'm sure the son of a National Championship winning SEC coach knows it. Better than any of us. Now whether or not he was in a situation to get it to be effective is a totally different argument.



I really wish people would go back and watch '12 games without the Gruden Circle-Jerk Glasses on. The D gave the O opportunities in MS ST game too. They forced them to 3 straight punts, and the didn't do anything with it. Even fumbled the ball with like 7-8 mins left in the forth that would have closed the gap to 3-pts a whole 2mins earlier than we ended up doing so, and given us continued momentum. And in the Mizzou game how is it fair to put it all on the D when they held them to 21 until the last min of the game?? The O had multiple tomes to at least put up a FG, and we wouldn't have gone to OT. Y'all include the OT #s to make them look bad and blame it on a squad that played their hearts out even though they were depleted. At the end of the day after the '11 season people wanted games to be closer, and better fought. They were in '12, and if people were to watch the games they would realize it. The Gruden circle jerk, and the heartbreaking tease type games was not a good mix.

-----

Now to both of yalls "focusing on the run game" comments. It was confirmed on here by DeerPark (AD insider) that the coaching staff would get livid with Bray for not managing the game better. Not listening to them, and going rogue when they wanted to control the game clock with runs etc. And no we couldnt sit Bray like so many wanted to say back then when people like me would make mention of Brays bratty behaviour hurting the team. We can see now that Worley and Peterman weren't ready to take the job. The fact that Dooley had no other option at QB, thx Kiffin, was one of the biggest underlying issues during his era.
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It's the coaches job to reign in the players. Dooley had no respect from the team and couldn't manage his players or his staff.

Blaming it all on Bray is kind of hilarious. Sure, he had a bad attitude, but honestly I don't blame him for thinking he knew better than Dooley. Dooley had very few people as a part of the program that believed in or respected him. A coach who actually had some coaching ability and earned the respect of his players could have gotten a lot more out of Bray.

And as far as Dooley's football knowledge, it's obvious that his daddy winning a championship and enabling little Derek to have everything handed to him on a silver platter did little to nothing for his knowledge of the game. If he'd had an understanding of the game or how to manage an offense, he wouldn't be holding Dez Bryant's water bottle for the Cowboys.
 
#55
#55
Darth_Shiveman said:
It's the coaches job to reign in the players. Dooley had no respect from the team and couldn't manage his players or his staff.

Blaming it all on Bray is kind of hilarious. Sure, he had a bad attitude, but honestly I don't blame him for thinking he knew better than Dooley. Dooley had very few people as a part of the program that believed in or respected him. A coach who actually had some coaching ability and earned the respect of his players could have gotten a lot more out of Bray.

And as far as Dooley's football knowledge, it's obvious that his daddy winning a championship and enabling little Derek to have everything handed to him on a silver platter did little to nothing for his knowledge of the game. If he'd had an understanding of the game or how to manage an offense, he wouldn't be holding Dez Bryant's water bottle for the Cowboys.
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Ok bud. You know CFB better than he does. :eek:k: smh Can't discuss things with people whose arguments come from straight hatred.

It's interesting how u sit here and say you can't blame it on Brsy, but it's ok to blame it all the defensive players like so many like to do.
 
#57
#57
chatt-townVOL said:
I haven't actually checked the stats but it definitely seemed like it was a lot better.
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Seemed like they were, and actually were are to different things. Last yr only seemed better because it was being compared to '12 #s, but doesn't mean the D was very good.
 
#58
#58
OL. I think our LBs will help make up for some of the growing pains on the DL. QB and RB play will suffer from a inexperienced OL.
 
#60
#60
Oskie Volum said:
My thought process go right over ur head again KB?? Not surprised Corky. One of these days you'll be able to get it. Just keep trying, and that's all we can ask from u.
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No, your pedestrian little post was straightforward, I got it, don't flatter yourself. It was just so wrong and so skewed that that's all I could come up with. The prism through you see the Dooley years is just sycophantic. Just go ahead a keep posting, I should know better than to make any comment.
 
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#61
#61
Dooley is gone. For better or worse, he's gone. Don't you guys think it might be time to move on?
 
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#62
#62
Oskie Volum said:
I find it difficult to believe that Dooley of all people doesnt understand the importance of a run game. If randoms on a forum know it I'm sure the son of a National Championship winning SEC coach knows it. Better than any of us. Now whether or not he was in a situation to get it to be effective is a totally different argument.



I really wish people would go back and watch '12 games without the Gruden Circle-Jerk Glasses on. The D gave the O opportunities in MS ST game too. They forced them to 3 straight punts, and the didn't do anything with it. Even fumbled the ball with like 7-8 mins left in the forth that would have closed the gap to 3-pts a whole 2mins earlier than we ended up doing so, and given us continued momentum. And in the Mizzou game how is it fair to put it all on the D when they held them to 21 until the last min of the game?? The O had multiple tomes to at least put up a FG, and we wouldn't have gone to OT. Y'all include the OT #s to make them look bad and blame it on a squad that played their hearts out even though they were depleted. At the end of the day after the '11 season people wanted games to be closer, and better fought. They were in '12, and if people were to watch the games they would realize it. The Gruden circle jerk, and the heartbreaking tease type games was not a good mix.

-----

Now to both of yalls "focusing on the run game" comments. It was confirmed on here by DeerPark (AD insider) that the coaching staff would get livid with Bray for not managing the game better. Not listening to them, and going rogue when they wanted to control the game clock with runs etc. And no we couldnt sit Bray like so many wanted to say back then when people like me would make mention of Brays bratty behaviour hurting the team. We can see now that Worley and Peterman weren't ready to take the job. The fact that Dooley had no other option at QB, thx Kiffin, was one of the biggest underlying issues during his era.
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I'm not sure what Gruden has to do with anything, but you're obviously biased towards the 2012 D. Which is fine, but it's EXTREMELY unfair to say "the D constantly put the O in situations where they could have made a last second win and they failed." That's not how the game works. End of the game wins rarely happen.

-Georgia put 51 on us.
-MS State (the game you blame the offense for) put 41 on us
-South Carlona put 38 on us
-Troy put 48 on us
-Vandy put 41 on us

These are not opinions, these are facts. The offense was constantly fighting an uphill battle. The fact that they were still in it at the end of the majority of these games is nothing but a testament to how good the offense actually was. The defense "putting the offense in a position to win at the end of the game" doesn't quite have the same meaning when they've spent the whole game nullifying every score the offense put up.
 
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#63
#63
The Defense was bad, record setting bad, but Bray was still overrated by this fan base.. Talent was evident, but the kid had many flaws...
 
#64
#64
Oskie Volum said:
No. Plenty of times where he left the D hanging after they gave the O the ball back. Florida '12 where we were winning, the D stops a fake punt attempt, and Bray and Co go 3 and out. Sending a tired D right back out there. Mizzou '12...we were up 28-21 all the way up to the last min of the game. The D gave the O the ball twice iirc in the 4th to put the game away and they did nothing with it. Everyone likes to put it on the D, but for a depleted group they played their butts off in '12. The O didn't put the teams away.
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I remember the db's (not sure specifically who) getting burnt by DGB on a 4th and 8 to tie the game with 40 something seconds left. You can put that on Bray all you want, but it wasn't his fault we had statistically the worst defense in school history that year.
 
#65
#65
PimpVol said:
Akron & Georgia State are still trying to cover Justin Hunter.
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He had over 1,000 yards receiving his junior year, was leading the SEC in receptions his sophomore year before getting injured and holds the record for most td receptions in school history by a freshman (7). But I guess he did all that against those two teams.
 
#66
#66
IF... Bray were a great leader who turned it on in clutch situations...

IF... Wilcox had not left....

IF... someone else had been hired as DC....

then the net result would be that UT would have competed for the East in '12 and Dooley would still be HC in all likelihood. Dooley's shortcomings were exposed by circumstances so why exactly are any of you now complaining about the circumstances? If not for that... it might have taken 5 more years to figure him out and get support for a change.
 
#68
#68
Rockytoptalker said:
I remember the db's (not sure specifically who) getting burnt by DGB on a 4th and 8 to tie the game with 40 something seconds left. You can put that on Bray all you want, but it wasn't his fault we had statistically the worst defense in school history that year.
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I didn't say the D didn't have its issue. Going into the season everyone knew they were going to be an issue. Bad depth, and a switch to a new scheme and coach. We all knew it was going to happen, and we all knew we had an O that was high scoring. It was suppose to balance it out, and the O didn't do its job. In turn made it tougher on the D.

I'm getting accused of having a bais towards the D as its a bad thing. A group of players that played their tails off for the Orange and White. Bray was a brat, and all knew it. He had no one to compete with so as a coach it's not easy to reign in a player like that. It's like taking over a business with major issues as a new mgr, and having to deal with the owners punk kid on staff. I frankly don't care if people believe I have a bias towards the D, but they are VOLS. I don't feel they deserve being bashed by a bunch of forum coaches that knew they were going to have issues going into the season. Point blank.

So u can't understand the pt that the game was 28-21 the whole 4th qtr, and the D stopped Mizzou multiple times before the DGB play in the last min of the game?? The play that he had to create in the dirt during the huddle, because Mizzou's coaching staff hadn't been able to come up with a play to score?? I understand how the game works just fine bud. To me giving the O the ball back 2 times in the 4th while up 28-21 should at least have produced a FG if Bray was soooo good in clutch big games. Which he wasn't. A FG and we win the game. Simple. To much smoke around him blowing games to help push Dooley out and for what?? To come back and play his Sr year under Gruden?? He messed up the game plan on purpose for the "swag" factor, and that's proven. All Bray produced at UT was the "swag" factor. He didn't beat anyone in a clutch game, so why do people have such love towards Bray and such hatred towards the '12 Vols D is what I wonder.
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#69
#69
Oskie Volum said:
I didn't say the D didn't have its issue. Going into the season everyone knew they were going to be an issue. Bad depth, and a switch to a new scheme and coach. We all knew it was going to happen, and we all knew we had an O that was high scoring. It was suppose to balance it out, and the O didn't do its job. In turn made it tougher on the D.

I'm getting accused of having a bais towards the D as its a bad thing. A group of players that played their tails off for the Orange and White. Bray was a brat, and all knew it. He had no one to compete with so as a coach it's not easy to reign in a player like that. It's like taking over a business with major issues as a new mgr, and having to deal with the owners punk kid on staff. I frankly don't care if people believe I have a bias towards the D, but they are VOLS. I don't feel they deserve being bashed by a bunch of forum coaches that knew they were going to have issues going into the season. Point blank.

So u can't understand the pt that the game was 28-21 the whole 4th qtr, and the D stopped Mizzou multiple times before the DGB play in the last min of the game?? The play that he had to create in the dirt during the huddle, because Mizzou's coaching staff hadn't been able to come up with a play to score?? I understand how the game works just fine bud. To me giving the O the ball back 2 times in the 4th while up 28-21 should at least have produced a FG if Bray was soooo good in clutch big games. Which he wasn't. A FG and we win the game. Simple. To much smoke around him blowing games to help push Dooley out and for what?? To come back and play his Sr year under Gruden?? He messed up the game plan on purpose for the "swag" factor, and that's proven. All Bray produced at UT was the "swag" factor. He didn't beat anyone in a clutch game, so why do people have such love towards Bray and such hatred towards the '12 Vols D is what I wonder.
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:lolabove:

Sorry man but you lost me here.
 
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#70
#70
chatt-townVOL said:
:lolabove:

Sorry man but you lost me here.
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Ok...Well that sounds more like a personal problem to me man. Cause if u disagree that's one thing, but not being able to comprehend the thought is ur problem not mine.
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#71
#71
fade route said:
DL by a mile. When you can't stop the run or get to the QB, then you have a hard time getting off the field, which further compounds the problem of not having quality depth. Which is also a glaring problem we have. The Oline will be fine...not worried about them.
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I agree. Vereen and Maggitt will be ok I think but we need DT's that can be disruptive and get into the backfield not just be there filling in gaps.
 
#72
#72
gobravesvols16 said:
I agree. Vereen and Maggitt will be ok I think but we need DT's that can be disruptive and get into the backfield not just be there filling in gaps.
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Hell, I'll go just for filling gaps at this point....didn't even do that last year. Filling gaps would be a major improvement.
 
#74
#74
sjt18 said:
Dooley is gone. For better or worse, he's gone. Don't you guys think it might be time to move on?
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Derek Dooley first season - 6-6 and seriously jobbed in the bowl game, should have been 7-6.

Butch Jones first season - 5-7 and no bowl game.

:good!:
 
#75
#75
NotoriousB-I-G said:
You derived that based off his 5-7 season? Maybe you're right, hopefully you're right, but I'm not sold on CBJ being all that based off 5-7.
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Negative.

I'm basing this off what Butch has done at past programs year to year. Especially the difference in his first and second year at Cincy. Obviously he knows how to correct mistakes.
 
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