Assault with a deadly lineman - Meyers' idea of institutional control...

#51
#51
hatvol96 said:
If one wins their games, they are worthy of their accomplishments. I'll leave the handwringing about ultimately irrelevant off field issues to the puritans on the board.
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Lexvol said:
Unless they are caught cheating by the NCAA, one is only proven fraudulent on the field of play.

Thereby "fraud" typically becomes one of those words fans of struggling programs throw out there to make themselves feel better.

If we were to make a list of coaches who didn't lie to fans, boosters and recruits on the recruiting trail how many coaches would be on that docket?
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i think both of you know that i'm not one of those fans......i don't have any misconceptions here.

but you both know, as well as I, had Fulmer done this exact same thing under the same circumstances, we'd all of chastised him for it......as would the media etc.....as he should be. what's good for the goose is good for the gander.......

my only issue is that i hope each coach's mishandling of such issues are treated the same.

to answer your question Lex, not many, probably none in the SEC that's for sure. but that's not the point.......just because everyone does it, doesn't make it alright, especially when there's something that seems to be so grossly contrary to what you supposedly stand for......."top one percent of the one percent"........

again, just want them all treated equally..........as many blunders as CPF has made, regarding discipline, a gaff this big shouldn't' go unnoticed.
 
#52
#52
jakez4ut said:
i think both of you know that i'm not one of those fans......i don't have any misconceptions here.

but you both know, as well as I, had Fulmer done this exact same thing under the same circumstances, we'd all of chastised him for it......as would the media etc.....as he should be. what's good for the goose is good for the gander.......

my only issue is that i hope each coach's mishandling of such issues are treated the same.

to answer your question Lex, not many, probably none in the SEC that's for sure. but that's not the point.......just because everyone does it, doesn't make it alright, especially when there's something that seems to be so grossly contrary to what you supposedly stand for......."top one percent of the one percent"........

again, just want them all treated equally..........as many blunders as CPF has made, regarding discipline, a gaff this big shouldn't' go unnoticed.
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Urban Meyer is just removed from winning a National Title. That gets you a longer leash in dealing with discipline. If a guy has gone a decade without winning his conference and his players are acting like extras from The Longest Yard, he deserves to be trashed.
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#53
#53
lawgator1 said:
I'm not going to stop being a fan of the team, or even of Meyer. Not like I get a vote in this situation. But I am not happy about it at all. Its more of a shaking my head at the fact that we've joined the ranks of the Crimi-Noles in overlooking stuff like this.

As I've said here for several years, gun-related offenses are a whole 'nother category when it comes to these kids. I can live with a minor pot charge or incident. I cannot be quiet when its firing a gun.

I wanted the players that accidentally fired a rifle in an apartment complex seriously considered for being booted off the team. For actually firing an assault rifle? I'm sorry, it's just not even close, and it's not debatable. He should not be back on the team. I guess he's just on the practice squad now and may not ever take the field for us again. This might just be an option so he can keep his scholarship and try to make something of himself. But if he does take the field in a game, I'm more than a little ashamed of it.
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Your dead on Law.
 
#54
#54
jakez4ut said:
my only issue is that i hope each coach's mishandling of such issues are treated the same.
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Why? Winners get, and rightly so, more leeway than the mediocre and losers among us. Urban Meyer has earned the benefit of the doubt. Fulamanure long ago exhausted his supply of goodwill.
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#55
#55
hatvol96 said:
Urban Meyer is just removed from winning a National Title. That gets you a longer leash in dealing with discipline. If a guy has gone a decade without winning his conference and his players are acting like extras from The Longest Yard, he deserves to be trashed.
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well, if we learned anything in the last decade, the leash needs to be shortened a lot quicker......maybe, then, this is an indicator that FL is headed down a similar road, and in 5 years they will be the wallowing 2nd tier SEC program............

in that respect....way to go UM........nice job....keep it up.
 
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#56
#56
jakez4ut said:
i think both of you know that i'm not one of those fans......i don't have any misconceptions here.

but you both know, as well as I, had Fulmer done this exact same thing under the same circumstances, we'd all of chastised him for it......as would the media etc.....as he should be. what's good for the goose is good for the gander.......

my only issue is that i hope each coach's mishandling of such issues are treated the same.

to answer your question Lex, not many, probably none in the SEC that's for sure. but that's not the point.......just because everyone does it, doesn't make it alright, especially when there's something that seems to be so grossly contrary to what you supposedly stand for......."top one percent of the one percent"........

again, just want them all treated equally..........as many blunders as CPF has made, regarding discipline, a gaff this big shouldn't' go unnoticed.
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So....call him slick....say you disagree with his decision. Until the NCAA catches Meyer cheating, or until he fails to earn his salary, calling him a fraud is inappropriate IMO.

This is not an "everyone does it" situation. There is nothing in the rules that says Meyer cannot let this kid back on the team.
 
#57
#57
jakez4ut said:
well, if we learned anything in the last decade, the leash needs to be short, a lot quicker......maybe, then, this is an indicator that FL is headed down a similar road, and in 5 years they will be the wallowing 2nd tier SEC program............

in that respect....way to go UM........nice job....keep it up.
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Given the length of the leash Fulamanure had to give certain essential partsof the '97 and '98 to keep them around, I think the idea that a coach needs to be Captain Queeg is flawed. What the last decade has taught us is that Fulamanure is only capable of winning big when he is blessed with talent superior to that of his opponents.
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#58
#58
Lexvol said:
So....call him slick....say you disagree with his decision. Until the NCAA catches Meyer cheating, or until he fails to earn his salary, calling him a fraud is inappropriate IMO.

This is not an "everyone does it" situation. There is nothing in the rules that says Meyer cannot let this kid back on the team.
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i get what your saying with "fraud" and honestly, the verbiage to describe this to me wouldn't fall under that either, just taking off what was already used.

in any event, in the most literal sense, you and Hat are both correct. he's not technicallyl cheating. it is up to him who is and is not on the team, and he does have a short leash right now.

my only point in all of this is, when people start talking about soft coaches and programs running wild, even those with short leashes are included.

and the "everyone does it" was only in response to the comment you made about coaches talking to fans and recruits.......and how that translates in what he actually does........and in this case, the two are contrary to each other........
 
#59
#59
hatvol96 said:
Given the length of the leash Fulamanure had to give certain essential partsof the '97 and '98 to keep them around, I think the idea that a coach needs to be Captain Queeg is flawed. What the last decade has taught us is that Fulamanure is only capable of winning big when he is blessed with talent superior to that of his opponents.
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in fairness, we knew that before this story came out........:eek:k:
 
#60
#60
hatvol96 said:
Given the length of the leash Fulamanure had to give certain essential partsof the '97 and '98 to keep them around, I think the idea that a coach needs to be Captain Queeg is flawed. What the last decade has taught us is that Fulamanure is only capable of winning big when he is blessed with talent superior to that of his opponents.
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and that's kind of the point.....not only then, but also in this decade, there were questionable decisions made........and all of it added up to the off season we had that led up to the debacle of the 2005 season.......

so, if this is any indication, like i said, maybe in 5 years, it will be FL that is stuck in mediocrity........
 
#61
#61
I started to write a lengthy thing about how its not okay to give this kid a pass just because he's a good football player. I can see some leeway, as I said, for pot. Nothing bad really happens to any other college student for minimal personal use possession, so its not like the football player ought to be singled out.

On the other hand, if some other student pops a guy in the jaw and then later pulls an AK-47 out of his trunk and fires it as the dispute continues, he's likely going away for awhile. Don't see how one can overlook something so criminally irresponsible, regardless of how good a player he might be.

As a Gator fan, I do not want him taking the field to represent my school.
 
#62
#62
jakez4ut said:
i get what your saying with "fraud" and honestly, the verbiage to describe this to me wouldn't fall under that either, just taking off what was already used.

in any event, in the most literal sense, you and Hat are both correct. he's not technicallyl cheating. it is up to him who is and is not on the team, and he does have a short leash right now.

my only point in all of this is, when people start talking about soft coaches and programs running wild, even those with short leashes are included.

and the "everyone does it" was only in response to the comment you made about coaches talking to fans and recruits.......and how that translates in what he actually does........and in this case, the two are contrary to each other........
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My only real point in all of this...if we were kicking Florida's butt no one would really care about what Urban Meyer was doing.
 
#63
#63
Lexvol said:
My only real point in all of this...if we were kicking Florida's butt no one would really care about what Urban Meyer was doing.
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i can certainly agree with that........well, with the caveat, i'd not care the same way FL fans don't care right now about Fulmer and his disciplinary transgression.......ie, fodder and humor for us as fans to make more fun of FL.
 
#64
#64
lawgator1 said:
I started to write a lengthy thing about how its not okay to give this kid a pass just because he's a good football player. I can see some leeway, as I said, for pot. Nothing bad really happens to any other college student for minimal personal use possession, so its not like the football player ought to be singled out.

On the other hand, if some other student pops a guy in the jaw and then later pulls an AK-47 out of his trunk and fires it as the dispute continues, he's likely going away for awhile. Don't see how one can overlook something so criminally irresponsible, regardless of how good a player he might be.

As a Gator fan, I do not want him taking the field to represent my school.
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you talke about the player and disappointed in the player.......and i get that.........


but what does it say to you, as a gator fan, about your coach that ALLOWS it to happen? is the leash as long as hat contends? this will only be dealt with when/if the L's start to pile up?

sort of rhetorical questions......but you get the idea of where i was going with it.......
 
#65
#65
jakez4ut said:
you talke about the player and disappointed in the player.......and i get that.........


but what does it say to you, as a gator fan, about your coach that ALLOWS it to happen? is the leash as long as hat contends? this will only be dealt with when/if the L's start to pile up?

sort of rhetorical questions......but you get the idea of where i was going with it.......
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Oh no, we are in agreement. The kid did what he did and that's one issue.

Meyer should not have let him back on the team, even if its just the scout team. I mean, I'm not going to go sign a petition on firemeyer.com or anything like that. But if he lets him put on the uniform and actually play?

Like I said I won't abandon him or the Gators, but it will affect my perception of him and make me EXTREMELY unforgiving should the kid do something awful down the road.

I wish he hadn't done it, I think the criticism here and elsewhere is deserved, and it makes the Gators program look pretty bad, IMO.
 
#66
#66
jakez4ut said:
and that's kind of the point.....not only then, but also in this decade, there were questionable decisions made........and all of it added up to the off season we had that led up to the debacle of the 2005 season.......

so, if this is any indication, like i said, maybe in 5 years, it will be FL that is stuck in mediocrity........
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Decisions that lead to consecutive SEC titles and a National Championship are most certainly not questionable.
 
#67
#67
hatvol96 said:
Having a mobster procure your players has a direct effect on what happens on the floor. That's a different issue than how a coach handles player behavior.
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still an ethical issue. Showing a player the door is certainly going to impact UT basketball this season as would ill begotten recruits.
 
#68
#68
hatvol96 said:
What the last decade has taught us is that Fulamanure is only capable of winning big when he is blessed with talent superior to that of his opponents.
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I think this is true of almost every coach out there, including the stars (at least over any extended period or over the course of a season).

My beef is that CPF started losing with superior talent and has continued the trend for a long period now.
 
#71
#71
lawgator1 said:
Oh no, we are in agreement. The kid did what he did and that's one issue.

Meyer should not have let him back on the team, even if its just the scout team. I mean, I'm not going to go sign a petition on firemeyer.com or anything like that. But if he lets him put on the uniform and actually play?

Like I said I won't abandon him or the Gators, but it will affect my perception of him and make me EXTREMELY unforgiving should the kid do something awful down the road.

I wish he hadn't done it, I think the criticism here and elsewhere is deserved, and it makes the Gators program look pretty bad, IMO.
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so, speaking from experience i guess, we make a mental note of this and a couple of other incidents in this category, and wait to bring them back up when/if FL starts losing too much.

then, we can all go back and recall all the things that led to the demise of the Urban Meyer led Florida Program.........
 
#72
#72
Lexvol said:
So....call him slick....say you disagree with his decision. Until the NCAA catches Meyer cheating, or until he fails to earn his salary, calling him a fraud is inappropriate IMO.

This is not an "everyone does it" situation. There is nothing in the rules that says Meyer cannot let this kid back on the team.
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Inappropriate?

He's the dictionary definition.

–noun 1.deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage. 2.a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud; election frauds. 3.any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and a waste of time. 4.a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.

A good case can be made for definition one, in that he made a bunch of great statements about being a tough disciplinarian in order to sell himself to the Florida fanbase and general public. In even making the 1% of 1%-type comments, he's well within the confines of definition 4.

What part of fraud do you not understand when a person claims one thing and then does another repeatedly?

"Fraud" isn't a matter of whether he's followed NCAA rules. It's a matter of whether he is a man with the integrity to live up to his word and, moreso, the expectations he set for himself.
 
#73
#73
hatvol96 said:
Urban Meyer is just removed from winning a National Title. That gets you a longer leash in dealing with discipline. If a guy has gone a decade without winning his conference and his players are acting like extras from The Longest Yard, he deserves to be trashed.
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You are just wrong. National Titles have no bearing whatsoever on personal integrity or the binding of ones words.

Period.
 
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#74
#74
Lexvol said:
My only real point in all of this...if we were kicking Florida's butt no one would really care about what Urban Meyer was doing.
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I can only speak for myself and not the rest of "we", so...


That's patently untrue.
 
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