Assault with a deadly lineman - Meyers' idea of institutional control...

#76
#76
Sorry. It seems to me that seeing a separation between performance and integrity is actually "reality". Please do explain to us how performance can redefine the meaning of personal integrity?

Question mark...
 
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#77
#77
Orange_Crush said:
Sorry. It seems to me that seeing a separation between performance and integrity is actually "reality". Please do explain to us how performance can redefine the meaning of personal integrity?

Question mark...
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Not difficult at all for anyone living in the real world. Ron Zook has players involved in off field incidents, loses four games a year, and gets fired. Urban Meyer has players involved in off field incidents, wins a National Title, and is lauded. It's simple. People who get results are graded on a more forgiving curve. If that bothers you, you should avoid anything that calls for competition totally. Try sitting around at a Bible study singing Kumbaya.
 
#78
#78
hatvol96 said:
Not difficult at all for anyone living in the real world. Ron Zook has players involved in off field incidents, loses four games a year, and gets fired. Urban Meyer has players involved in off field incidents, wins a National Title, and is lauded. It's simple. People who get results are graded on a more forgiving curve. If that bothers you, you should avoid anything that calls for competition totally. Try sitting around at a Bible study singing Kumbaya.
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I completely understand the logic here but have enough athletes that commit this level of a crime repeatedly, and see how long it goes unnoticed.

I mean the kid could have killed somebody, maybe next time he does. But I guess it's okay as long as the kid is part of a team winning nat'l championships.{sarcasm off}
 
#79
#79
Orange_Crush said:
Inappropriate?

He's the dictionary definition.

–noun 1.deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage. 2.a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud; election frauds. 3.any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and a waste of time. 4.a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.

A good case can be made for definition one, in that he made a bunch of great statements about being a tough disciplinarian in order to sell himself to the Florida fanbase and general public. In even making the 1% of 1%-type comments, he's well within the confines of definition 4.

What part of fraud do you not understand when a person claims one thing and then does another repeatedly?

"Fraud" isn't a matter of whether he's followed NCAA rules. It's a matter of whether he is a man with the integrity to live up to his word and, moreso, the expectations he set for himself.
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He could care less about what the general public thinks. As far as Florida fans are concerned I would say to a person that they think they have gotten everything they have paid for in a head coach.
They don't seemed all that concerned about this 1% number you are throwing around.

I haven't seen anything fraudulent about Meyer to this point. By all accounts he is a hard nosed coach that demands the most of his players. Not only that he seems to be attracting the top 1%....of the talent pool.

Winning a championship= meeting his set expectations.
 
#80
#80
Lexvol said:
He could care less about what the general public thinks. As far as Florida fans are concerned I would say to a person that they think they have gotten everything they have paid for in a head coach.
They don't seemed all that concerned about this 1% number you are throwing around.

I haven't seen anything fraudulent about Meyer to this point. By all accounts he is a hard nosed coach that demands the most of his players. Not only that he seems to be attracting the top 1%....of the talent pool.

Winning a championship= meeting his set expectations.
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Lex, all that is great, and it sounds good and i'm sure that in the present time, all things considered, it's all true.

but all that goes out the window the longer he goes w/out winning another championship or if he can't stay on top.

as more off field issues arrise, then the more relevant these "campaign promises" become....afterall, they were his words, he did say it........i for one have no problem with anyone holding him accountable to it.

in the end though, you are correct. keep winnning, and no one will care.
 
#81
#81
Lexvol said:
Winning a championship= meeting his set expectations.
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Yep.

In a perfect world, I'm sure Meyer and UF would like to win championships with a roster full of athletically gifted choir boys....but you can rarely have it both ways.

His job security is much greater if he has thugs winning championships than it is if he has academic all-americans losing 5 games per year. And it's no different at Florida than it is at any other major football school in America.

Don't hate the player...hate the game.
 
#82
#82
jakez4ut said:
Lex, all that is great, and it sounds good and i'm sure that in the present time, all things considered, it's all true.

but all that goes out the window the longer he goes w/out winning another championship or if he can't stay on top.

as more off field issues arrise, then the more relevant these "campaign promises" become....afterall, they were his words, he did say it........i for one have no problem with anyone holding him accountable to it.

in the end though, you are correct. keep winnning, and no one will care.
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My goodness....we are all talking like there is total anarchy in Gainesville while Richt is up to his eyeballs in trouble.

St. Richt gets a pass because he goes to church...and because we beat the living poop out of GA last year.

Not that I want to discuss Mark Richt.....
 
#83
#83
JT, i agree, he's definitley not going to lose his job for off field issues, real or percieved disciplinary issues.......keep winning, and life's good. just a hiccup or two along the way......
 
#84
#84
Lexvol said:
My goodness....we are all talking like there is total anarchy in Gainesville while Richt is up to his eyeballs in trouble.

St. Richt gets a pass because he goes to church...and because we beat the living poop out of GA last year.

Not that I want to discuss Mark Richt.....
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there's some truth to that.......Meyer comes off as a smarmy, smug SOB. Richt is the soft spoken chruch goin' man........image is everything......wonder where he learned that????:p

but all that does is prove your point.....we beat GA, so we don't care.

here's to not caring about Meyer or FL.........:thumbsup:
 
#87
#87
either way, i think we all see eye to eye on this issue......regardless of all the peripherals........in the end, it is the way it is, and it's been this way for a long time and it's not changing anytime soon.

but i'd be willing to bet Joe Pa is wondering why an ESPN crew isn't in Athens or Gainesville digging around like they did in State College...........:)
 
#88
#88
hatvol96 said:
Not difficult at all for anyone living in the real world. Ron Zook has players involved in off field incidents, loses four games a year, and gets fired. Urban Meyer has players involved in off field incidents, wins a National Title, and is lauded. It's simple. People who get results are graded on a more forgiving curve. If that bothers you, you should avoid anything that calls for competition totally. Try sitting around at a Bible study singing Kumbaya.
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The discussion isn't about whether they are lauded or fired. Go re-read the context here and you'll see that the discussion is primarily around whether Urban is a fraud, and whether he's lived up to his "1% of 1%" promises.

Now, your Bible-study-bashing and debate-by-condescension tactics aside, please explain to me how winning or losing has any effect whatsoever on the definition of "fraud", or on anyone's personal integrity.

Again, I'm not denying that some may ignore the importance of personal integrity and judge the means justified by the ends. But that isn't the discussion. It's a discussion about right and wrong, is and ought.

If you have no concept of right and wrong, maybe you should be the one at the Bible study.
 
#89
#89
Orange_Crush said:
please explain to me how winning or losing has any effect whatsoever on the definition of "fraud", or on anyone's personal integrity.
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It's an elementary American concept. Winners get to define themselves and losers get labeled by others. Example: A rich guy talking to himself=Eccentric. A homeless guy engaging in the same behavior=Crazy.
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#90
#90
hatvol96 said:
It's an elementary American concept. Winners get to define themselves and losers get labeled by others. Example: A rich guy talking to himself=Eccentric. A homeless guy engaging in the same behavior=Crazy.
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And here I thought the elementary American concepts were defined from the onset... Things like self-evident inherent rights, the equality of all, etc...

Naive, I'm sure...

Your existential self-definitions aside, though...

An example pertinent to the conversation...

Rich guy, making millions of dollars a year coaching football promises only the best of the best, including character, on the team... He puts a convicted illicit drug using criminal that busted a jaw and threatened the victim with an assault rifle on the said team...

He can define himself anything he wants, but it's very American to define him as a liar.

As a reminder, here's a quote from the article that defines what we're talking about. It's not a conversation about coaching prowess or what some people may be willing to overlook for a winning season. It's about character and integrity.

"Urban Meyer used the phrase to sell his vision. Florida's players, Meyer said while speaking to the Gators Club in 2005 and 2006, would be "the top one percent of one percent," meaning they would be intelligent, athletically gifted young men with excellent character. When Meyer spoke the words, the old Gators cheered. The phrase even headlined page 1 of the 2006 Florida media guide.

Meyer hasn't uttered those words publicly in a while. That's probably appropriate, considering he has once again issued a practice jersey to Ronnie Wilson..."

So, if you're doing nothing more than arguing about the acceptance of lack of integrity in our current society, then you're just being redundant. If you want to have a discussion based on the topic as defined in the beginning of the thread, then it can be a much more interesting discussion.

So... With all that said, where do you weigh in on the topic-- the "ought" discussion? "Ought" Meyer be a man of character and integrity? Or do you think that the ends really do justify the means, and integrity-be-damned? (Especially considering that his word extends to beyond the fans that will overlook his lack of integrity, to the parents of the kids who share a locker room, etc with the drug-using, violent, gun-toting criminals he's willing to bunk with them for the sake of a few wins?)

Weigh in on those thoughts and let's make the discussion a little more interesting than superficial caricatures of how you see America.
 
#91
#91
Orange_Crush said:
Weigh in on those thoughts and let's make the discussion a little more interesting than superficial caricatures of how you see America.
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so we can have an even more superficial discussion about morality vis a vis college football?

It's just a lot more fun to avoid long walls of text like the one you just penned. Let's stick to the superficial quips and leave morality debates to philosophy professors and seminary students.
 
#92
#92
Orange_Crush said:
And here I thought the elementary American concepts were defined from the onset... Things like self-evident inherent rights, the equality of all, etc...

Naive, I'm sure...

Your existential self-definitions aside, though...

An example pertinent to the conversation...

Rich guy, making millions of dollars a year coaching football promises only the best of the best, including character, on the team... He puts a convicted illicit drug using criminal that busted a jaw and threatened the victim with an assault rifle on the said team...

He can define himself anything he wants, but it's very American to define him as a liar.

As a reminder, here's a quote from the article that defines what we're talking about. It's not a conversation about coaching prowess or what some people may be willing to overlook for a winning season. It's about character and integrity.

"Urban Meyer used the phrase to sell his vision. Florida's players, Meyer said while speaking to the Gators Club in 2005 and 2006, would be "the top one percent of one percent," meaning they would be intelligent, athletically gifted young men with excellent character. When Meyer spoke the words, the old Gators cheered. The phrase even headlined page 1 of the 2006 Florida media guide.

Meyer hasn't uttered those words publicly in a while. That's probably appropriate, considering he has once again issued a practice jersey to Ronnie Wilson..."

So, if you're doing nothing more than arguing about the acceptance of lack of integrity in our current society, then you're just being redundant. If you want to have a discussion based on the topic as defined in the beginning of the thread, then it can be a much more interesting discussion.

So... With all that said, where do you weigh in on the topic-- the "ought" discussion? "Ought" Meyer be a man of character and integrity? Or do you think that the ends really do justify the means, and integrity-be-damned? (Especially considering that his word extends to beyond the fans that will overlook his lack of integrity, to the parents of the kids who share a locker room, etc with the drug-using, violent, gun-toting criminals he's willing to bunk with them for the sake of a few wins?)

Weigh in on those thoughts and let's make the discussion a little more interesting than superficial caricatures of how you see America.
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The only quote from Meyer is simply the term "top one percent of one percent." The author then decides to add what he thinks defines that concept. Given the utter contempt I hold 97.5% of the media in, their attempt to analyze Meyer's words mean nothing to me.
Urban Meyer is paid to win football games, not impress opposing fans by exercising the discipline they feel is necessary. If parents are concerned about the teammates their sons will have in Gainesville, they'll quit sending them to play there. Given the talent Meyer is bringing in, it appears the only people concerned about Meyer's actions are columnists desperate for a topic and fans of a team tired of seeing their fossilized coaching staff get punked by Urban & Co.
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#93
#93
BigPapaVol said:
so we can have an even more superficial discussion about morality vis a vis college football?

It's just a lot more fun to avoid long walls of text like the one you just penned. Let's stick to the superficial quips and leave morality debates to philosophy professors and seminary students.
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When do seminary students have time for morality debates? I would figure coming up with new lines for picking up altar boys leaves them with little time for such a mundane topic.
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#94
#94
hatvol96 said:
it appears the only people concerned about Meyer's actions are columnists desperate for a topic and fans of a team tired of seeing their fossilized coaching staff get punked by Urban & Co.
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just what do you mean by punked?
 
#100
#100
hatvol96 said:
The only quote from Meyer is simply the term "top one percent of one percent." The author then decides to add what he thinks defines that concept. Given the utter contempt I hold 97.5% of the media in, their attempt to analyze Meyer's words mean nothing to me.
Urban Meyer is paid to win football games, not impress opposing fans by exercising the discipline they feel is necessary. If parents are concerned about the teammates their sons will have in Gainesville, they'll quit sending them to play there. Given the talent Meyer is bringing in, it appears the only people concerned about Meyer's actions are columnists desperate for a topic and fans of a team tired of seeing their fossilized coaching staff get punked by Urban & Co.
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Click to expand...

The author of the column is a UF guy and has followed Urban Meyer closer than any of us. He'd know his stuff better than you. (And seeing how I followed Urban's arrival and read all of the grand claims he made about on-and-off-field requirements, I know full well what Urban was talking about.) Further, the best I can tell from other sources, the guy is a Florida fan, so seems to write from the perspective of concern for the program more than desperation for a topic.

Urban Meyer is paid to run a football program. That entails much more than winning games. You actually alluded to this point in that parents may stop sending their student athletes there. It includes setting the program up for future success, protecting the program from liability, etc...

And again, the topic is about integrity, not the football program in general.

Seeing how I haven't brought up win/loss records once, and make a practice of breaking your American caricature by judging individuals on character, I prove your last point as a null. For instance, Tebow spanks us, but I like him a lot due to his apparent character and values.

BigPaPaVolL

"so we can have an even more superficial discussion about morality vis a vis college football?

It's just a lot more fun to avoid long walls of text like the one you just penned. Let's stick to the superficial quips and leave morality debates to philosophy professors and seminary students."

It isn't so much morality as it is an extension of thoughts on integrity found in the article that actually started this thread.

Tell me what's superficial about that. To quote, I don't think that word (superficial) means what you think it means.

And feel free to avoid my long walls, including this one. It just seems somewhat self-defeating to both ignore them and make disparaging comments about them such as the "naive", and the "go to a bible study" one (neither by you, of course).

Either ignore the thoughts or deal with them. But don't belittle them while ignoring them. That's just ignorant.

I'll drop the subject and leave the thread to the "Ends justify the means" camp, and the "Defend Meyer at the expense of Fulmer" mindsets...

Peace...
 
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