Atheists & Spiritualists = Equal Fools

#253
#253
IPorange said:
fyp
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Statements aren't on equal footing anymore. Everyone believes matter exists (unless they're just crazy, or overboard psychobabblers "it's all a dream").

But they're split on whether the matter came from God, or didn't.

And those two views are pretty much logically equal.
 
#255
#255
BigPapaVol said:
Default position in this case depends upon viewpoint.
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I'm clearly failing to convey my train of thought on this. This is no different than the logic applied to statistical tests, to prove or disprove hypotheses. You start with the null hypothesis- no change, no difference, no "whatever." You hold on to that hypothesis until you can reject it with reasonable confidence. That's the only possible default position, as otherwise you would be crippled with possibilities limited only by your imagination, that you could never disprove.
 
#256
#256
rjd970 said:
If you follow the Hitchens view, yes. Personally, I think it would be great if there was an overarching power watching over us and there was something better waiting for us when we died. But simply wanting to believe something isn't good enough for me, at some point it has to make sense.
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You demand intellectual honesty - have weighed the evidence of a "God", and found it wanting. While you would like to believe, perhaps emotionally, you refuse to do so because you believe that the considered facts do not warrant such a claim.

What's wrong with that? Nothing.

But don't you have to be equally honest in admitting that neither position (i. e. There is / not a God) can be proven with certainty?
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#257
#257
StepCross said:
Statements aren't on equal footing anymore. Everyone believes matter exists (unless they're just crazy, or overboard psychobabblers "it's all a dream").

But they're split on whether the matter came from God, or didn't.

And those two views are pretty much logically equal.
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I agree that the statements are not on equal footing. One assumes something out of thin air, the other only tries to explain through extrapolation and conjecture. One assumes that there is an answer to every question, the other assumes there are endless questions, only raise more questions. Thus, it isn't surprising or alarming not to have all the answers.
 
#258
#258
IPorange said:
This is no different than the logic applied to statistical tests, to prove or disprove hypotheses. You start with the null hypothesis- no change, no difference, no "whatever." You hold on to that hypothesis until you can reject it with reasonable confidence.
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First, it's TOTALLY different than statistical hypothesis testing. For one thing...we got no stats to test a hypothesis against!

Second, which one's the null, and why?
 
#259
#259
Tenacious D said:
But don't you have to be equally honest in admitting that neither position (i. e. There is / not a God) can be proven with certainty?
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You keep asking this, in different ways. Is there someone who's saying otherwise that you are disagreeing with? Because I'm not seeing it.
 
#260
#260
StepCross said:
First, it's TOTALLY different than statistical hypothesis testing. For one thing...we got no stats to test a hypothesis against!

Second, which one's the null, and why?
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I said the logic was the same.

Which do you think is the null? There's only one that truly can be, for the sort of reasons I've already said in this thread.

I mean, how do you test for something NOT existing? I'm all ears.
 
#261
#261
IPorange said:
I mean, how do you test for something NOT existing? I'm all ears.
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Exactly, which is why I said there's not much link to hypothesis testing.

IPorange said:
Which do you think is the null? There's only one that truly can be, for the sort of reasons I've already said in this thread.
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Naw, man, that's not how nulls come about. You must know a little about this since you brought hypothesis testing up, and that's not exactly everyman language.

The null is more or less just "what we thought before this experiment." Classic example would be:

Null hypothesis = human body temp is 98.6 degrees F.

Turns out stats tell us to reject the null.

If I already believe in God, and have since I can remember, well, that's probably my "null." If I don't, then THAT's my null.

But you're acting like one is an obvious choice of a null hypothesis, and it just isn't.
 
#262
#262
StepCross said:
Statements aren't on equal footing anymore. Everyone believes matter exists (unless they're just crazy, or overboard psychobabblers "it's all a dream").

But they're split on whether the matter came from God, or didn't.

And those two views are pretty much logically equal.
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Titanium.
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#263
#263
IPorange said:
You keep asking this, in different ways. Is there someone who's saying otherwise that you are disagreeing with? Because I'm not seeing it.
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There have been several posts where either side has stated with apparent certainty in their position, and/or in the incorrectness of the opposing side.

Yet, neither can be certain of either, if they were honest.
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#265
#265
IPorange said:
You keep asking this, in different ways. Is there someone who's saying otherwise that you are disagreeing with? Because I'm not seeing it.
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Tenacious D said:
There have been several posts where either side has stated with apparent certainty in their position, and/or in the incorrectness of the opposing side.
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Eh...both sides admit you can't "prove" either position.

But both sides seem to think there is reason to believe their side is more probably right, or something.
 
#266
#266
NYYVol said:
Are you comparing the closets of the Atheists and the homosexuals?
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Not exactly, but some comparison can be made. A man/woman gets married to a God-fearing Christian, said person realizes they don't believe in God, wants to come out but are too afraid because they still love the person they married and believe their partner will leave them because of this.

There isn't complete social repercussions like a gay person would have when dealing with this. Most people won't lose friends by declaring atheism, I know I didn't lose many, if any. A large portion of my family would cease talking to me if they knew, though. I'm in no way closeted, but I just don't bring it up around them.
 
#267
#267
BeecherVol said:
Im at a loss..
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Neither side is certain, as evidences are lacking, and may never be available.

So how do they choose? Desire.

Spiritualists desire a God, choose it, and arrange all beliefs/evidences to support that conclusion.

Atheists do not desire a God, choose to reject / ignore any ideation of one, and arrange all beliefs / evidences to support that conclusion.

They're so similiar because they've done the exact same thing - picked what they desired / hoped to be true despite the unwavering fact that no certainty can exist in whether God exists, or not.
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#268
#268
StepCross said:
Eh...both sides admit you can't "prove" either position.

But both sides seem to think there is reason to believe their side is more probably right, or something.
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Right.

"Our side is less uncertain than yours!"so to speak.
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#269
#269
VOLatile said:
Not exactly, but some comparison can be made. A man/woman gets married to a God-fearing Christian, said person realizes they don't believe in God, wants to come out but are too afraid because they still love the person they married and believe their partner will leave them because of this.

There isn't complete social repercussions like a gay person would have when dealing with this. Most people won't lose friends by declaring atheism, I know I didn't lose many, if any. A large portion of my family would cease talking to me if they knew, though. I'm in no way closeted, but I just don't bring it up around them.
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If one is and one isn't thats gonna be hard to hide. To the point of knowing someone well enough to marry them. Those types of things stick out pretty quick.

Thats not saying you have complete knowledge and understanding of your spouse before your married, because that is not true.
 
#270
#270
BeecherVol said:
If one is and one isn't thats gonna be hard to hide. To the point of knowing someone well enough to marry them. Those types of things stick out pretty quick.

Thats not saying you have complete knowledge and understanding of your spouse before your married, because that is not true.
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Every once in a while a thread pops up on r/atheism (Reddit) that deals with someone asking for advice about this issue or detailing the fallouts of their relationship. Doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen.
 
#271
#271
Tenacious D said:
Neither side is certain, as evidences are lacking, and may never be available.

So how do they choose? Desire.

Spiritualists desire a God, choose it, and arrange all beliefs/evidences to support that conclusion.

Atheists do not desire a God, choose to reject / ignore any ideation of one, and arrange all beliefs / evidences to support that conclusion.

They're so similiar because they've done the exact same thing - picked what they desired / hoped to be true despite the unwavering fact that no certainty can exist in whether God exists, or not.
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Can you not be part of one or the other?

I think that was also brought up earlier, may have been covered. Too lazy to dig back through.
 
#272
#272
BeecherVol said:
Can you not be part of one or the other?

I think that was also brought up earlier, may have been covered. Too lazy to dig back through.
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Agnosticism doesn't truely exist since everyone forms an opinion about everything they learn.
 
#273
#273
VOLatile said:
Every once in a while a thread pops up on r/atheism (Reddit) that deals with someone asking for advice about this issue or detailing the fallouts of their relationship. Doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen.
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Funny we got on this, I have read through the "Interracial Marriage" thread somewhat. And I think someone posted it there, but the Bible does not mention going out side of your race in marriage, but it does in regards to your faith.
 
#274
#274
BeecherVol said:
Funny we got on this, I have read through the "Interracial Marriage" thread somewhat. And I think someone posted it there, but the Bible does not mention going out side of your race in marriage, but it does in regards to your faith.
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Unevenly yoked.
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#275
#275
BeecherVol said:
Can you not be part of one or the other?

I think that was also brought up earlier, may have been covered. Too lazy to dig back through.
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On the surface, yes.

But ultimately, no, you either believe there is (a large chasm to jump, to be sure) or don't.
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