Atheists & Spiritualists = Equal Fools

#126
#126
TD you seem to want everyone to prove there is a God, just what is your proof that there isn't a God? Other than your opinion. Do you have the same hard facts that you want others to prove?
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#127
#127
Tenacious D said:
That's not the question.

Are you an atheist or a spiritualist (i.e. Christian, Hindu, Muslim, etc.)?

Prove that your belief - whichever it is - is the correct one.
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There are three major divisions on how you can describe reality: Spiritualism, Supernaturalism, and Naturalism.

Spiritualism says that all that is truly real is spiritual... in a way, that everything we consider "natural" and measurable is nothing more than our collective imagination. These folks sincerely believe that if you change the way you think then you can change reality itself.

Naturalism says that the only things that are real are material in nature. Some naturalists will hedge by saying that we can only "know" what is natural rather than the immaterial does not exist. Purely speaking though the naturalist believes everything can be measured and associated with a physical cause. Things like love and thought are nothing more than highly evolved instinctual reactions and chemical reactions in the brain... the impression that they are immaterial in nature is considered an allusion. The "love" that causes a human mother to cuddle her child is just a highly evolved form of the instinct that causes cats to eat runts. Necessarily all of natural history is nothing more than random natural events. That is why even the most implausible natural explanation for some facet of origins will always be considered acceptable while something like intelligent design will be rejected out of hand.

Supernaturalism says that not only are both material and immaterial things real, they interrelate to create what we experience as reality.
 
#128
#128
sjt18 said:
I am a "super naturalist". A Christian believing that both the physical and spiritual realms are real and interrelated.

To the best of my ability, I have critically looked at what I believe and why I believe it and have found it to be consistent with itself and what I experience/know in the world in which we live.

Is that the "proof" you are looking for? Probably not. However it does satisfy logic, reason, and my soul. IMO, it makes it superior to every other view to include atheism/materialism or pure spiritualism (the belief that all physical reality is nothing more than a product of the collective consciousness- New Age, Hinduism, et al).
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I understand and appreciate all of this. I really do.

But the questions are these:

1. Can God's non/existence be effectively and empirically dis/proven?
2. If it cannot be so dis/proven now, then when, if ever?
3. If it will never be dis/proven, and cannot be (my stance) - why do both spiritualists and atheists insist on foolishly debating that which even they cannot be certain about?
4. In the course of these "debates" (i.e. arguments, exchange of ideas, spreading the word, or whatever else you want to call it) - the entirety of the focus is on DISPROVING the other sides belief, and not in PROVING their own, ostensibly, because such proves impossible to either side, equally. Simply, when it comes to the question of God's existence, its foolish to think that you can cancel all theories while failing to support at least the one which must be right.
5. If the matter cannot now nor will ever be effectively and empirically answered - in either regard - what satisfaction or purpose is derived from debating the merits of this, an entirely unsolvable matter, altogether?

And forget any nonsensical ideation that someone may assert, essentially saying that there is some magical "happy medium" whereby the two ideals can somehow peaceably coexist. To believe this possible is to defy the laws of logic itself, and to escape the bounds of reason. They cannot coexist, whatsoever, one is right and the other is wrong. There is neither a third option, nor is there any middle ground to be found here, on this most fundamental of all questions:

Does God exist, or not?
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#129
#129
Tenacious D said:
And forget any nonsensical ideation that someone may assert, essentially saying that there is some magical "happy medium" whereby the two ideals can somehow peaceably coexist. To believe this possible is to defy the laws of logic itself, and to escape the bounds of reason. They cannot coexist, whatsoever, one is right and the other is wrong. There is neither a third option, nor is there any middle ground to be found here, on this most fundamental of all questions:

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They're gonna coexist, they always have.

I agree that there is not really a third option, and really no middle ground to be had.
 
#130
#130
Tenacious D said:
I understand and appreciate all of this. I really do.

But the questions are these:

1. Can God's non/existence be effectively and empirically dis/proven?
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We have all been raised in a western paradigm but in the strictest sense God's existence is just as proveable as the existence of the computer you are typing on. Try dropping your preconceptions and think as a pure spiritualist for a moment. To them, God is a construct of the collective consciousness as is that computer.

So the question you ask still goes back to your fundamental presupposition about reality. Can you prove God while accepted the limitations of philosophical naturalism? Of course not... by definition you can't. However naturalism itself cannot be proven either.

2. If it cannot be so dis/proven now, then when, if ever?
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Christians believe that God has directly interacted with man at various times in history and will again in the natural realm as well as the spiritual realm.
3. If it will never be dis/proven, and cannot be (my stance) - why do both spiritualists and atheists insist on foolishly debating that which even they cannot be certain about?
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Because it matters. It especially matters for someone who believes that reality extends beyond this mortal life.
4. In the course of these "debates" (i.e. arguments, exchange of ideas, spreading the word, or whatever else you want to call it) - the entirety of the focus is on DISPROVING the other sides belief, and not in PROVING their own, ostensibly, because such proves impossible to either side, equally. Simply, when it comes to the question of God's existence, its foolish to think that you can cancel all theories while failing to support at least the one which must be right.
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I wouldn't concede this. To me, logic itself points to God since most accept that the universe had a beginning... thus it needed a prime cause which existed outside of "nature". Beyond that, I would say the design characteristics found in genetics strongly suggest intelligence rather than natural chance events. I would also point you to the Discovery Institute for information concerning the fine tuning of the universe.

You also have historical records of the Bible itself. You can deny that the witnesses of Jesus Christ are true... but you cannot deny that they make objective claims of supernatural acts and a supernatural person.

All of these to me are positive proofs for supernaturalism. I could probably give you a longer list of proofs against naturalism and specifically evolution but there is positive evidence consistent and supportive of what I believe.
5. If the matter cannot now nor will ever be effectively and empirically answered - in either regard - what satisfaction or purpose is derived from debating the merits of this, an entirely unsolvable matter, altogether?
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The Bible promises a culmination of all things. If it is true then you will most definitely know in the relatively near term future. If it is true... then this debate is vital.

And forget any nonsensical ideation that someone may assert, essentially saying that there is some magical "happy medium" whereby the two ideals can somehow peaceably coexist.
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Hopefully you have not read my responses as equivocation... they aren't. As I said before, I am satisfied that my beliefs are consistent with themselves and everything I experience both materially and immaterially in this world. I have not been exposed to another view that comes close by comparison.
 
#131
#131
vols999 said:
I agree that he was somewhat vague and may not have been a Christian, but I think he did believe in a Creator and disagreed with any theory suggesting this all happened by chance, luck, or rock soup.
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If anything, he was Jewish.
 
#132
#132
God exists or he doesn't. We all believe what makes more sense to us and it makes us all feel better to reassure ourselves of our position. It is that simple, not sure the point of this thread.

On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being absolutely sure there is a divine being, 10 being absolutely sure there isn't, I'm probable sitting somewhere around a 9.7.

And if empirical evidence is brought up in the discussion, the decision is weighted in favor of science...just by the very nature of it being a cornerstone to the scientific decision philosophy. If we want to look strictly at faith, then the decision is weighted toward religion.

JMO.
 
#133
#133
Tenacious D said:
Do you believe that the either side can effectively prove their position to be true - meaning, empirically true.

If not, why waste time arguing it?
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Your position is exactly backwards. If someone COULD prove it empirically true, then everyone would STOP arguing.

It's the fact that you can't that ENCOURAGES arguing.

Proof would kill the issue dead.
 
#134
#134
Tenacious D said:
I believe that you believe this to be true.

Can you prove it?

Will you ever be able to?
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You posed a terrible question. The answer for every 'spiritualist' is faith.

Can't speak for atheists.
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#135
#135
Vols520 said:
You posed a terrible question. The answer for every 'spiritualist' is faith.

Can't speak for atheists.
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Isn't faith, by its very definition, an admission of the absence of proof?

If so, doesn't that only further reinforce my point - that neither atheists nor spiritualists can effectively and empirically prove the non/existence of God?
 
#136
#136
TD, why would you expect God to reveal Himself to you when you don't believe He exists? You spoke of Christians only having faith, what you will never be able to fully grasp is what happens to a person that has truly experienced salvation. Even if you don't believe in our experience, you where not there and don't understand the experience and just how life changing it is. This is how a Christian really understands that there is a God when you experience Him. My deepest prayer is for you and some others to one day experience it for yourselves.
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#137
#137
Tenacious D said:
Isn't faith, by its very definition, an admission of the absence of proof?

If so, doesn't that only further reinforce my point - that neither atheists nor spiritualists can effectively and empirically prove the non/existence of God?
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No less so than you can in the truest sense empiraclly prove that the spiritualist is wrong about reality. EVERYONE whether consciously or unconsciously operates on faith. The naturalist does so just like the spiritualist or supernaturalist though he would vehemently deny it.
 
#138
#138
rjd970 said:
God exists or he doesn't. We all believe what makes more sense to us and it makes us all feel better to reassure ourselves of our position. It is that simple, not sure the point of this thread.

On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being absolutely sure there is a divine being, 10 being absolutely sure there isn't, I'm probable sitting somewhere around a 9.7.

And if empirical evidence is brought up in the discussion, the decision is weighted in favor of science...just by the very nature of it being a cornerstone to the scientific decision philosophy. If we want to look strictly at faith, then the decision is weighted toward religion.

JMO.
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IIRC, it is hinduism or one of the other eastern mystical religions that deems all of the natural world nothing more than the sum of our collective dreams. Is that possible? If so, then that makes the naturalistic assumption you made above unfalsifiable and therefore unscientific.
 
#139
#139
sjt18 said:
IIRC, it is hinduism or one of the other eastern mystical religions that deems all of the natural world nothing more than the sum of our collective dreams. Is that possible? If so, then that makes the naturalistic assumption you made above unfalsifiable and therefore unscientific.
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funny you talk about mystical religions. there is movement in Christianity that is mixing new age mysticism with christianity and a lot of poplula pastors such as joel olsteen are pushing this. alot of people are getting into this new Christianity.
 
#140
#140
joevol320 said:
funny you talk about mystical religions. there is movement in Christianity that is mixing new age mysticism with christianity and a lot of poplula pastors such as joel olsteen are pushing this. alot of people are getting into this new Christianity.
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Making a myth more mythical...
 
#142
#142
BeecherVol said:
Joel Olsteen.:hmm:
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joel-osteen1.jpg
 
#143
#143
Oldvol75 said:
TD, why would you expect God to reveal Himself to you when you don't believe He exists? You spoke of Christians only having faith, what you will never be able to fully grasp is what happens to a person that has truly experienced salvation. Even if you don't believe in our experience, you where not there and don't understand the experience and just how life changing it is. This is how a Christian really understands that there is a God when you experience Him. My deepest prayer is for you and some others to one day experience it for yourselves.
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Why would you presume to know my beliefs?

Where have I said that spiritualists "only" have faith? I don't know what else you have - I'm asking you to prove the existence of God, no more, no less.
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#144
#144
sjt18 said:
No less so than you can in the truest sense empiraclly prove that the spiritualist is wrong about reality. EVERYONE whether consciously or unconsciously operates on faith. The naturalist does so just like the spiritualist or supernaturalist though he would vehemently deny it.
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Re-read my OP.

I'm not asking anyone to disprove the other side - we've got that in spades - I'm saying to prove what it is that you believe, whatever that might be.

I want someone to effectively and empirically dis/prove the existence of God.

Can you?
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#147
#147
Tenacious D said:
Re-read my OP.

I'm not asking anyone to disprove the other side - we've got that in spades - I'm saying to prove what it is that you believe, whatever that might be.

I want someone to effectively and empirically dis/prove the existence of God.

Can you?
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Silly. Dis/Prove the existence of unicorns. If somebody wants to believe unicorns exist, I challenge you to disprove it. Likewise, if somebody doesn't believe in unicorns, they would be hardpressed to prove it to somebody that does.

Point being, it isn't the actual belief that matters, it is the reasons we have for believing what we do. That is the point of these discussions, whether we know it or not. We provide reasons for and against what we believe/disbelieve with regards to the supernatural. I think you miss the point here.
 
#149
#149
BeecherVol said:
Yes. And he fits that mold well.

Imagine that pic being his facial expression the entire 30-45 mins he speaks.
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I can believe it. Does he have some sort of mullet going on, too? I think that's how he came up in conversation the other day. My friend and I were talking about the glorious mullets we had last year for Halloween. Heh.
 
#150
#150
VOLatile said:
I can believe it. Does he have some sort of mullet going on, too? I think that's how he came up in conversation the other day. My friend and I were talking about the glorious mullets we had last year for Halloween. Heh.
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Yeah, with the "Soul Glo" mix run through it.
 
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