Atlanta Police walkout

#477
#477
Orange_Crush said:
I agree in part. That's no excuse though, any more than it was for the brown shirts.
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If the politicians wanted to end no-knock warrants or high speed chases or shooting a fleeing suspect they have the power to do so.
 
#480
#480
Orange_Crush said:
I agree. Officers need to be protected. Civilians need to be protected. The system needs to change. Overall, law enforcement have resisted change and added oversight/accountability for years.

Something has to change.
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I think we may be in the midst of that change, but actions like these from a weaponized DA and mayor work against any possible shot at building common ground anf buy in from all involved to make it work. You're poisoning the well.
 
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#481
#481
rjd970 said:
Traditional values? They would have a more solid foundation to argue from if they would stop electing guys like Donald Trump.
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Let me tell you the best part about Donald Trump: he won in 2016. That's more than I can say about 2008 and 2012 GOP nominees
 
#482
#482
KB5252 said:
I think we may be in the midst of that change, but actions like these from a weaponized DA and mayor work against any possible shot at building common ground anf buy in from all involved to make it work. You're poisoning the well.
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I'm not sure if you mean that I'm poisining the well, but I agree with you.

I don't think that politics and weaponized DAs is impartial oversight, so it's not what I'm arguing for.
 
#484
#484
Orange_Crush said:
I'm not sure if you mean that I'm poisining the well, but I agree with you.

I don't think that politics and weaponized DAs is impartial oversight, so it's not what I'm arguing for.
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No, not you specifically. Just stating the well is being poisoned.
 
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#486
#486
Orange_Crush said:
So your argument is that our current **** system is all that we can hope for, so you'll just gloat the "miss me yet?" argument.

Bull.

I suspect we could come up with a system that protects officers and pays them well while holding them accountable. It's disingenuous to say that it's an important enough job to pay better if you don't tie that importance to accountability as well.
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We can have the conversation to improve conditions. I've posted my opinions on that already which includes paying them substantially more. But you cant pay them more while cities are moving to defund them. Those policies contradict themselves. When you grossly over charge an officer in a time where others are getting executed, you will not attract smart, qualified people of any race.

I have yet to dismiss holding bad cops accountable. I've stated that Chauvin needed to be arrested as he was. Are they over charging too? probably. But the difference in action and charge isnt as wide as the atl situation. The atl situation is a deterrent to recruitment. Police need to be supported when its appropriate. I'd walk off the job too if I was an officer.
 
#487
#487
Orange_Crush said:
Every? They would get one of those options for every/any use of force? Or they would be truly investigated?
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being placed in a federal lawsuit everytime they pull someone over or place someone in cuffs, even if no actual force was used seems ok to you?
 
#488
#488
Orange_Crush said:
One officer arrested sends a chill down officer spines and they walk out. One man smothered to death over nine minutes shouldn't send a chill down every civilian's spine? One mom shot while sleeping during a no-knock warrant didn't seem to send any chills down law enforcement spines? I don't see law enforcement rallying to get that law off the books.

Yah. Walk out. We'll fill the vacuum somehow.
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lol i am sure you will
 
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#489
#489
Orange_Crush said:
I agree. Officers need to be protected. Civilians need to be protected. The system needs to change. Overall, law enforcement have resisted change and added oversight/accountability for years.

Something has to change.
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The atl situation isnt the one to put on a poster for that change. Floyd? sure. But including this with systemic issues is what is actually disingenuous. Anyone who does that isnt interested in pure justice.
 
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#490
#490
Orange_Crush said:
Seems if they don't want to be fired upon whgile rushing a home in the middle of the night, they'd NOT want to issue a no-knock warrant. Goes back to my point--I'm not seeing too many agencies pressing the legislature to make no-knock warrants illegal.

But back to the point. One conviction sends chills down officer's spines, but one no-knock shooting should give civilians pause per the system?
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It's definitely the police's fault when criminals shoot at them, even tasers they stole from them
 
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#491
#491
Orange_Crush said:
Seems if they don't want to be fired upon whgile rushing a home in the middle of the night, they'd NOT want to issue a no-knock warrant. Goes back to my point--I'm not seeing too many agencies pressing the legislature to make no-knock warrants illegal.

But back to the point. One conviction sends chills down officer's spines, but one no-knock shooting should give civilians pause per the system?
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Its a catch 22 with the no knock. On one hand I totally get not announcing your arrival and keeping the element of surprise to get the drop on "the bad guys". On the other hand you have what happened here. The kicker with this story is that the cops believed packages were being delivered to that apartment, with drugs in them, by the post office. The post office inspector told them before the raid that no packages had been delivered to that address. Seems to be a HUGE communication breakdown in the chain of command somewhere there and it cost someone their life.
 
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#493
#493
utvols88 said:
We can have the conversation to improve conditions. I've posted my opinions on that already which includes paying them substantially more. But you cant pay them more while cities are moving to defund them. Those policies contradict themselves. When you grossly over charge an officer in a time where others are getting executed, you will not attract smart, qualified people of any race.

I have yet to dismiss holding bad cops accountable. I've stated that Chauvin needed to be arrested as he was. Are they over charging too? probably. But the difference in action and charge isnt as wide as the atl situation. The atl situation is a deterrent to recruitment. Police need to be supported when its appropriate. I'd walk off the job too if I was an officer.
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Police need to make more $, and be better trained. I'm against defunding police. It's stupid. I'm against over-charging police. I'm all for funds to pay their legal fees. I'm not sure I'm against the ATL walk-off, with how the Da is acting.

There are still MAJOR problems in the system. Police have STILL stiff-armed meaningful change, oversight and accountability.

If they choose to walk out as opposed to those changes, I say go for it. We'll figure out a way to fill the void with a better system.
 
#494
#494
Rickyvol77 said:
being placed in a federal lawsuit everytime they pull someone over or place someone in cuffs, even if no actual force was used seems ok to you?
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Maybe I'm missing your point. You're saying that they would be arrested or in a lawsuit every time they pulled someone over? Or they would have their job performance reviewed like most of the rest of us?
 
#496
#496
Orange_Crush said:
Maybe I'm missing your point. You're saying that they would be arrested or in a lawsuit every time they pulled someone over? Or they would have their job performance reviewed like most of the rest of us?
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Qualified Immunity means that officers cant be held for frivilous lawsuits in court (especially civil) unless they truly violate someone's rights, or use excessive force, etc. If you strip away that immunity, lawyers wanting money can sue officers for everything at any time. Literally every action by an officer (writing reports, working a traffic accident, helping on medical calls, arresting or citing ANYONE, cuffing and detaining anyone, investigating a major crime, etc) could be taken to court by a lawyer and criminal. While most of these would be dropped, it would overwhelm both the court systems, reduce the number of officers working by tying them up constantly, and officers would simply refuse to do anything.
 
#498
#498
Orange_Crush said:
Maybe I'm missing your point. You're saying that they would be arrested or in a lawsuit every time they pulled someone over? Or they would have their job performance reviewed like most of the rest of us?
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And officers do have job performance reviewed
 
#499
#499
Rickyvol77 said:
Qualified Immunity means that officers cant be held for frivilous lawsuits in court (especially civil) unless they truly violate someone's rights, or use excessive force, etc. If you strip away that immunity, lawyers wanting money can sue officers for everything at any time. Literally every action by an officer (writing reports, working a traffic accident, helping on medical calls, arresting or citing ANYONE, cuffing and detaining anyone, investigating a major crime, etc) could be taken to court by a lawyer and criminal. While most of these would be dropped, it would overwhelm both the court systems, reduce the number of officers working by tying them up constantly, and officers would simply refuse to do anything.
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Rickyvol77 said:
And officers do have job performance reviewed
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I misunderstood the point in discussion. My bad.

I'm not sure how to fix the issue with qualified immunity, except to limit it severely with non-law enforcement oversight that says what was excessive/abuse, what puts them outside of their immunity to repercussions.

I don't want them frivolously sued/arrested. I w2ant their immunity limited. I think the oversight should be external, objective and real.
 
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