Bad Day for Wisconsin

#28
#28
Where is this idea of a right to collective bargain coming from?

Really.

They are public employees who are handcuffed by union thugs. This is not taxation without representation. It is, however, going to free thousands of taxpayers from Democrat-sponsored extortion. They are being held at gunpoint for their union dues. Don't want to pay? Don't keep your job.

Along with this, these employees are now responsible for a larger, albeit still tiny, share of their insurance and retirement. It is absolute garbage to believe that even though we're broke, you still need to get paid more. If we don't have the money, we can't have these extras.

Let me say it again: WE ARE BROKE. WE DON'T HAVE MONEY. States can no longer borrow, the Fed can no longer borrow. This isn't the 1930s. There's no magical European war to save our economy. We have to reinvent the way we do things, and it sure as hell isn't with entitlement benefits and fancy 92% retirement/insurance packages.

I would get into the living wage crap, but I'll just leave it at this: Street sweepers don't need HDTV and cell phones. Don't like your life? Should have worked harder in school. You shouldn't get a free pass for 18 years of laziness. There's a saying: "You reap what you sow." Stop taking what I earned and worked for. I don't work my butt off so that you can sit back and relax. Entitlement is distinctly un-American.
 
#29
#29
Google Tennesse Consolidated Retirement System Teachers are group 1 I think.
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#32
#32
utgibbs said:
Ah, the Class War in glorious Technicolor.

Riddle me this VolNation:

Tax cuts for Corporations 2010: $140 million

Budget deficit 2011: $137 million

Corporations put nothing back into the Wisconsin economy last year.

Now, tell me about who deserves what, VolNation. I'm all ears.
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To me, he is simply making Wisconsin a contender for new jobs. There's a reason the South is gaining industry while the North and West aren't.
 
#33
#33
droski said:
pretty generous, but not wisconsin levels certainly.
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I think it's probably still a good deal, but likely comparable with state private employees. Much of TN pay is lower than the national average, but it's not like everyone is in the poor house.
 
#34
#34
jwells said:
I think it's probably still a good deal, but likely comparable with state private employees. Much of TN pay is lower than the national average, but it's not like everyone is in the poor house.
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no way that's comparable with private employees. first off most private employees have defined contribution plans (401ks etc). therefore if there is a shortfall it's the employees problem. if the 7% contributed by the state and the employees doesn't amount to enough money to cover the pensions the STATE makes up the difference. and that is what we are seeing nationwide. the contribution levels are way too low and there are billions of dollars of pension deficits in this country. i'd also argue most private employees pay more than 1/3 of their medical as well.
 
#35
#35
Gibbs, you're not seeing the big picture. You're so focused in on a preconceived issue that you aren't seeing the one pertinent to this exact story.
 
#36
#36
IPorange said:
Gibbs, you're not seeing the big picture. You're so focused in on a preconceived issue that you aren't seeing the one pertinent to this exact story.[/QUOTE]

At least you didn't tell him it was the one "right outside his back door."
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#37
#37
utgibbs said:
Ah, the Class War in glorious Technicolor.

Riddle me this VolNation:

Tax cuts for Corporations 2010: $140 million

Budget deficit 2011: $137 million

Corporations put nothing back into the Wisconsin economy last year.
Click to expand...
You mean they ceased doing business? You mean they took the money and moved out of the state anyway? Word to those whose backyard view is of Alice's Wonderland... If $140 million in tax cuts kept several billion dollars worth of business going in Wisconsin last year considering the economy.... it was a good investment.

Now, tell me about who deserves what, VolNation. I'm all ears.
Click to expand...

No you aren't. You haven't listened yet and won't listen now. Who "deserves what"? Independent of the diversion you've attempted, the public sector unions and Dems do NOT deserve the right to cooperatively fleece the tax payer. It wasn't right to start with and now we simply cannot afford it.
 
#39
#39
jwells said:
To me, he is simply making Wisconsin a contender for new jobs. There's a reason the South is gaining industry while the North and West aren't.
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Except it didn't.

Hoarding is the new "job creation" in the End-Times of Capitalism.

I must also note, there has never been a time, in the history of capitalism when it has needed as much direct state intervention. It's always, of course, needed it, but it has reached beyond historic levels in our times.

Love the contradictions in glorious Technicolor.
 
#40
#40
droski said:
no way that's comparable with private employees. first off most private employees have defined contribution plans (401ks etc). therefore if there is a shortfall it's the employees problem. if the 7% contributed by the state and the employees doesn't amount to enough money to cover the pensions the STATE makes up the difference. and that is what we are seeing nationwide. the contribution levels are way too low and there are billions of dollars of pension deficits in this country. i'd also argue most private employees pay more than 1/3 of their medical as well.
Click to expand...

Trust me, I'd rather just have 401k price matching to choose where my money goes. I'd say that in most years the state brings in greater than their 4% invested. I'm not arguing for a pension system, just saying that 7% is a return most would look to have. I think it's short-sided to assume that 30 years down the road your money will be there, but it's the system they have, I guess.

I'm not sure what private sector employees pay, but I think that based on the education level, the salary/benefits for each avg out near each other. For example: my dental from private to public was about 1 or 2 dollars different a month. Not a great amount. Can't imagine health was far off.

Nationally, I have no clue, but insurance costs here are less, anyhow, as is the cost of living.
 
#43
#43
droski said:
no way that's comparable with private employees. first off most private employees have defined contribution plans (401ks etc). therefore if there is a shortfall it's the employees problem. if the 7% contributed by the state and the employees doesn't amount to enough money to cover the pensions the STATE makes up the difference. and that is what we are seeing nationwide. the contribution levels are way too low and there are billions of dollars of pension deficits in this country. i'd also argue most private employees pay more than 1/3 of their medical as well.
Click to expand...

TCRS is one of the most fiscally sound state retirements. Don't discount the fact that no matching funds for 401k are available. 10% matching funds in private industry is sigificant. The levels are different for different jobs. Would like to see state Senate/Rep pensions for comparison. TCRS is definately not a Cadillac plan.
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#44
#44
sjt18 said:
You mean they ceased doing business? You mean they took the money and moved out of the state anyway? Word to those whose backyard view is of Alice's Wonderland... If $140 million in tax cuts kept several billion dollars worth of business going in Wisconsin last year considering the economy.... it was a good investment.

But this is hogwash. That's not at all what happened.


No you aren't. You haven't listened yet and won't listen now. Who "deserves what"? Independent of the diversion you've attempted, the public sector unions and Dems do NOT deserve the right to cooperatively fleece the tax payer. It wasn't right to start with and now we simply cannot afford it.
Click to expand...

Feel free to fill me in on what I missed.
 
#45
#45
utgibbs said:
Except it didn't.

Hoarding is the new "job creation" in the End-Times of Capitalism.

I must also note, there has never been a time, in the history of capitalism when it has needed as much direct state intervention. It's always, of course, needed it, but it has reached beyond historic levels in our times.

Love the contradictions in glorious Technicolor.
Click to expand...

In case you haven't noticed, corporations don't just pop up over night. They take their time to find a good fit. If you aren't competitive, you simply won't do well.

That's like saying a football player shouldn't work hard because he's not in the Super Bowl yet. You have to lay the groundwork before you get to the big game. Wisconsin and many other states have had too many years of doing things the wrong way. The world is out-competing us for jobs. We HAVE to change the way we do things. We are hanging on to lone super-power status by a thin, thin thread that says "made in China."
 
#47
#47
utgibbs said:
Fill me in.
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Actually read other people's posts in this and other threads. Also, learn about economics. You said Wisconsin's businesses contribute nothing to the state. Get a f***ing clue, that's just a stupid comment.
 
#48
#48
jwells said:
In case you haven't noticed, corporations don't just pop up over night. They take their time to find a good fit. If you aren't competitive, you simply won't do well.

That's like saying a football player shouldn't work hard because he's not in the Super Bowl yet. You have to lay the groundwork before you get to the big game. Wisconsin and many other states have had too many years of doing things the wrong way. The world is out-competing us for jobs. We HAVE to change the way we do things. We are hanging on to lone super-power status by a thin, thin thread that says "made in China."
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There is no doubt about that.

However, you are advocating "becoming China" in order to sustain what is unsustainable. It is a failure of imagination. We can, should, and are able to do better.

It will be amazingly difficult, but it is what must be faced and what must be done.
 
#49
#49
jwells said:
Trust me, I'd rather just have 401k price matching to choose where my money goes. I'd say that in most years the state brings in greater than their 4% invested. I'm not arguing for a pension system, just saying that 7% is a return most would look to have. I think it's short-sided to assume that 30 years down the road your money will be there, but it's the system they have, I guess.

I'm not sure what private sector employees pay, but I think that based on the education level, the salary/benefits for each avg out near each other. For example: my dental from private to public was about 1 or 2 dollars different a month. Not a great amount. Can't imagine health was far off.

Nationally, I have no clue, but insurance costs here are less, anyhow, as is the cost of living.
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not sure i understand your point. personally i'd most definetely prefer to retire after 30 years of service and get 80% of my last years salary for all of retirement including cost of living increases. no chance a 401k with a simple 7% investment per year can reach that level in 30 years baring astronomical stock returns. simple math says that it would take 10 years to pay for ONE year of retirement baring zero stock returns, try paying for 30.

JayVols said:
TCRS is one of the most fiscally sound state retirements. Don't discount the fact that no matching funds for 401k are available. 10% matching funds in private industry is sigificant. The levels are different for different jobs. Would like to see state Senate/Rep pensions for comparison. TCRS is definately not a Cadillac plan.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

most companies match around 3-4% in 401ks.
 
#50
#50
IPorange said:
Actually read other people's posts in this and other threads. Also, learn about economics. You said Wisconsin's businesses contribute nothing to the state. Get a f***ing clue, that's just a stupid comment.
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Did you just fill his back door? Did you have to give dibs to the gorilla?
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