Bama BB shooting event per police report

#208
#208
DaddyChad said:
Absolutely pathetic.

Completely tone deaf program.
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That pretty much sums it up to me. The way Bama has handled this entire situation is the epitome of being tone deaf. The "Just Win Baby " saying comes to mind every time I hear anything about this. Flat out awful.... I've mentioned a lot about this,but they really need to put things into perspective regarding this whole case.
 
#209
#209
volfanhill said:
I would like to hear from @bamawriter on this. May have missed it.
Click to expand...

This will be long. Sorry in advance.

First off, I cannot for the life of me figure out why the administration did not come out with Miller's involvement before the preliminary hearing. I would be surprised if TPD asked the school to keep quiet beyond the arraignment. But in the unlikely event that the investigators asked that the school not say anything until those facts were made public, the school would have had to know that they were likely to come out in last week's hearing. Alabama has a very good law school. Surely someone on that campus could have told the administration how preliminary hearings work. The school should have had a prepared statement ready to fire off the moment Miller's name was mentioned from the witness stand. To allow Nate Oats (who I swear might be somewhere on the spectrum) to be asked in his weekly presser without even knowing that Miller's name had come up is professional negligence. Of course Oats' answer was awful. He's not very good at operating off the cuff. That's why the school has an SID department. That no one had the good sense to put a stop to the pat down intro routine back when the shooting first happened is beyond baffling. The school's response has been a total s***show, and it's completely inexcusable.

As to how they've handled Miller... I honestly don't know that right thing to do here. He hasn't been charged, and it doesn't appear that he's going to be. He's a cooperating witness. But, he's not owed the ability to play college basketball. I hope, and this may be a naive hope, that the school has a grasp on the totality of his involvement. If they do, and he's still playing, then the facts that come out over the natural course of the legal process should reflect positively on Miller. But there are so many facts that are unknown, and no one from the school, the authorities, or Miller himself are falling over themselves to offer clarity.

I'm genuinely unconcerned with the text message from Miles. Even digital forensics cannot prove whether or not Miller actually read the message in the five or so minutes between when the text was sent and when the shooting started. Nor is there any way to know, if he did read it, that he fully processed what Miles had said. While most of the statement from Miller's attorney is unhelpful due to being self-serving, it does clarify a chunk of the timeline of events. Miles sent the text at 1:38 a.m. The victims flagged down a cop by the Walk of Champions at 1:45 a.m. That's a really short window for Miller to arrive, for the gun to be retrieved, for the shooting to happen, and for the victims to flee the scene and get to the stadium. His lawyer's contention that Miller was already en route, and thus not headed there because of the text, fits within the context of the known facts. So the text is not a huge deal in my mind. I know many will want to argue with me on this point. And I'm not going to say that those folks are wrong. What I am saying is that I don't think the text is going to be a crucial piece of evidence toward Miller's culpability.

HOWEVER, there are some discrepancies and gaps in the narrative as told by the press, and Miller's attorney did little to clear them up.

First, there were two local publications that sent reporters to the hearing: Al.com and The Tuscaloosa News. All of the other reports that I've seen have been sourced by one or the other. AL.com summarized one of the detectives as saying that, when Miller arrived, Miles grabbed the gun out of the back seat, then gave it to Davis and made the comments "The heat is in the hat," and "There's one in the head." They helpfully translated them for almost-40-year-old white guys like me as meaning "I've got the gun right here" and "There's a bullet in the chamber." The Tuscaloosa News also gave a summary with the detective relaying the same statements, but this time Miles and Davis had climbed into the backseat of Miller's car and had the conversation before getting out and beginning the assault. That's a gigantic discrepancy. If Miller was present for that conversation, then the lack of knowledge argument goes right out the window. If Miller heard that conversation, then his daschcam better have caught him yelling "'There's one in the head?!?!' What the f***?!?! What do you think you're doing?!?! Get your a** back in the car!!!" Absent that, I don't know how Miller is not an accessory.

Second, we don't know how Miles and Davis made it back to Miles' apartment. We know that Miles called 911 and lied about having hitched a ride with his girlfriend to pick Davis up from downtown and having no idea how Davis had gotten shot. But there has been no clarity as to the truth of their method of travel. It's about a 45 minute walk from Grace and University to the University Downs Apartments. But one would think that a couple of guys who'd just participated in a shooting would probably not want to be on foot for that stretch of time. It was testified that Miles' girlfriend was present at the scene, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that she had a vehicle nearby and drove Miles and Davis home. However, if that's the case, why did Miles spend over an hour texting Miller to come pick him up? When Miller told him it would be a while, why not just split with the girlfriend? So that leaves the question: did Miller drive them home? If so, that blows up the lack of knowledge argument. Again, if he drove Miles and Davis home, his camera better have caught his passengers threatening him to either drive or get shot. Otherwise, how is Miller not an accessory?

So, there you have it. I told you it would be long.
 
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#211
#211
More was done about the McCollough incident than the two incidents involving Burton and Miller has been to date. It really is a pisser.

What's more is that if I were a coach and had players with guns other than for hunting. I would suspend them and made sure that they were kept in a safe well away from the owner.
 
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#212
#212
bamawriter said:
This will be long. Sorry in advance.

First off, I cannot for the life of me figure out why the administration did not come out with Miller's involvement before the preliminary hearing. I would be surprised if TPD asked the school to keep quiet beyond the arraignment. But in the unlikely event that the investigators asked that the school not say anything until those facts were made public, the school would have had to know that they were likely to come out in last week's hearing. Alabama has a very good law school. Surely someone on that campus could have told the administration how preliminary hearings work. The school should have had a prepared statement ready to fire off the moment Miller's name was mentioned from the witness stand. To allow Nate Oats (who I swear might be somewhere on the spectrum) to be asked in his weekly presser without even knowing that Miller's name had come up is professional negligence. Of course Oats' answer was awful. He's not very good at operating off the cuff. That's why the school has an SID department. That no one had the good sense to put a stop to the pat down intro routine back when the shooting first happened is beyond baffling. The school's response has been a total s***show, and it's completely inexcusable.

As to how they've handled Miller... I honestly don't know that right thing to do here. He hasn't been charged, and it doesn't appear that he's going to be. He's a cooperating witness. But, he's not owed the ability to play college basketball. I hope, and this may be a naive hope, that the school has a grasp on the totality of his involvement. If they do, and he's still playing, then the facts that come out over the natural course of the legal process should reflect positively on Miller. But there are so many facts that are unknown, and no one from the school, the authorities, or Miller himself are falling over themselves to offer clarity.

I'm genuinely unconcerned with the text message from Miles. Even digital forensics cannot prove whether or not Miller actually read the message in the five or so minutes between when the text was sent and when the shooting started. Nor is there any way to know, if he did read it, that he fully processed what Miles had said. While most of the statement from Miller's attorney is unhelpful due to being self-serving, it does clarify a chunk of the timeline of events. Miles sent the text at 1:38 a.m. The victims flagged down a cop by the Walk of Champions at 1:45 a.m. That's a really short window for Miller to arrive, for the gun to be retrieved, for the shooting to happen, and for the victims to flee the scene and get to the stadium. His lawyer's contention that Miller was already en route, and thus not headed there because of the text, fits within the context of the known facts. So the text is not a huge deal in my mind. I know many will want to argue with me on this point. And I'm not going to say that those folks are wrong. What I am saying is that I don't think the text is going to be a crucial piece of evidence toward Miller's culpability.

HOWEVER, there are some discrepancies and gaps in the narrative as told by the press, and Miller's attorney did little to clear them up.

First, there were two local publications that sent reporters to the hearing: Al.com and The Tuscaloosa News. All of the other reports that I've seen have been sourced by one or the other. AL.com summarized one of the detectives as saying that, when Miller arrived, Miles grabbed the gun out of the back seat, then gave it to Davis and made the comments "The heat is in the hat," and "There's one in the head." They helpfully translated them for almost-40-year-old white guys like me as meaning "I've got the gun right here" and "There's a bullet in the chamber." The Tuscaloosa News also gave a summary with the detective relaying the same statements, but this time Miles and Davis had climbed into the backseat of Miller's car and had the conversation before getting out and beginning the assault. That's a gigantic discrepancy. If Miller was present for that conversation, then the lack of knowledge argument goes right out the window. If Miller heard that conversation, then his daschcam better have caught him yelling "'There's one in the head?!?!' What the f***?!?! What do you think you're doing?!?! Get your a** back in the car!!!" Absent that, I don't know how Miller is not an accessory.

Second, we don't know how Miles and Davis made it back to Miles' apartment. We know that Miles called 911 and lied about having hitched a ride with his girlfriend to pick Davis up from downtown and having no idea how Davis had gotten shot. But there has been no clarity as to the truth of their method of travel. It's about a 45 minute walk from Grace and University to the University Downs Apartments. But one would think that a couple of guys who'd just participated in a shooting would probably not want to be on foot for that stretch of time. It was testified that Miles' girlfriend was present at the scene, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that she had a vehicle nearby and drove Miles and Davis home. However, if that's the case, why did Miles spend over an hour texting Miller to come pick him up? When Miller told him it would be a while, why not just split with the girlfriend? So that leaves the question: did Miller drive them home? If so, that blows up the lack of knowledge argument. Again, if he drove Miles and Davis home, his camera better have caught his passengers threatening him to either drive or get shot. Otherwise, how is Miller not an accessory?

So, there you have it. I told you it would be long.
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Nice write up.

I don’t disagree much with what you said but about the texts read and timeline.

Digital forensics on almost any smart phone can tell the exact time a text is delivered, read, and deleted. Also, most phones and a lot of newer cars also store GPS readings for locations and are timestamped. If this is a real investigation and they seized his phone and car, in a matter of hours, they can have a timeline that is NTP synchronized across phone and car, so it is indisputable. BUT they really must want to get to the bottom of Miller’s involvement for that to have occurred.
 
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#213
#213
Dadof2Vols said:
Nice write up.

I don’t disagree much with what you said but about the texts read and timeline.

Digital forensics on almost any smart phone can tell the exact time a text is delivered, read, and deleted. Also, most phones and a lot of newer cars also store GPS readings for locations and are timestamped. If this is a real investigation and they seized his phone and car, in a matter of hours, they can have a timeline that is NTP synchronized across phone and car, so it is indisputable. BUT they really must want to get to the bottom of Miller’s involvement for that to have occurred.
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You can prove a text is read, can you prove who read it?
 
#214
#214
bamawriter said:
This will be long. Sorry in advance.

First off, I cannot for the life of me figure out why the administration did not come out with Miller's involvement before the preliminary hearing. I would be surprised if TPD asked the school to keep quiet beyond the arraignment. But in the unlikely event that the investigators asked that the school not say anything until those facts were made public, the school would have had to know that they were likely to come out in last week's hearing. Alabama has a very good law school. Surely someone on that campus could have told the administration how preliminary hearings work. The school should have had a prepared statement ready to fire off the moment Miller's name was mentioned from the witness stand. To allow Nate Oats (who I swear might be somewhere on the spectrum) to be asked in his weekly presser without even knowing that Miller's name had come up is professional negligence. Of course Oats' answer was awful. He's not very good at operating off the cuff. That's why the school has an SID department. That no one had the good sense to put a stop to the pat down intro routine back when the shooting first happened is beyond baffling. The school's response has been a total s***show, and it's completely inexcusable.

As to how they've handled Miller... I honestly don't know that right thing to do here. He hasn't been charged, and it doesn't appear that he's going to be. He's a cooperating witness. But, he's not owed the ability to play college basketball. I hope, and this may be a naive hope, that the school has a grasp on the totality of his involvement. If they do, and he's still playing, then the facts that come out over the natural course of the legal process should reflect positively on Miller. But there are so many facts that are unknown, and no one from the school, the authorities, or Miller himself are falling over themselves to offer clarity.

I'm genuinely unconcerned with the text message from Miles. Even digital forensics cannot prove whether or not Miller actually read the message in the five or so minutes between when the text was sent and when the shooting started. Nor is there any way to know, if he did read it, that he fully processed what Miles had said. While most of the statement from Miller's attorney is unhelpful due to being self-serving, it does clarify a chunk of the timeline of events. Miles sent the text at 1:38 a.m. The victims flagged down a cop by the Walk of Champions at 1:45 a.m. That's a really short window for Miller to arrive, for the gun to be retrieved, for the shooting to happen, and for the victims to flee the scene and get to the stadium. His lawyer's contention that Miller was already en route, and thus not headed there because of the text, fits within the context of the known facts. So the text is not a huge deal in my mind. I know many will want to argue with me on this point. And I'm not going to say that those folks are wrong. What I am saying is that I don't think the text is going to be a crucial piece of evidence toward Miller's culpability.

HOWEVER, there are some discrepancies and gaps in the narrative as told by the press, and Miller's attorney did little to clear them up.

First, there were two local publications that sent reporters to the hearing: Al.com and The Tuscaloosa News. All of the other reports that I've seen have been sourced by one or the other. AL.com summarized one of the detectives as saying that, when Miller arrived, Miles grabbed the gun out of the back seat, then gave it to Davis and made the comments "The heat is in the hat," and "There's one in the head." They helpfully translated them for almost-40-year-old white guys like me as meaning "I've got the gun right here" and "There's a bullet in the chamber." The Tuscaloosa News also gave a summary with the detective relaying the same statements, but this time Miles and Davis had climbed into the backseat of Miller's car and had the conversation before getting out and beginning the assault. That's a gigantic discrepancy. If Miller was present for that conversation, then the lack of knowledge argument goes right out the window. If Miller heard that conversation, then his daschcam better have caught him yelling "'There's one in the head?!?!' What the f***?!?! What do you think you're doing?!?! Get your a** back in the car!!!" Absent that, I don't know how Miller is not an accessory.

Second, we don't know how Miles and Davis made it back to Miles' apartment. We know that Miles called 911 and lied about having hitched a ride with his girlfriend to pick Davis up from downtown and having no idea how Davis had gotten shot. But there has been no clarity as to the truth of their method of travel. It's about a 45 minute walk from Grace and University to the University Downs Apartments. But one would think that a couple of guys who'd just participated in a shooting would probably not want to be on foot for that stretch of time. It was testified that Miles' girlfriend was present at the scene, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that she had a vehicle nearby and drove Miles and Davis home. However, if that's the case, why did Miles spend over an hour texting Miller to come pick him up? When Miller told him it would be a while, why not just split with the girlfriend? So that leaves the question: did Miller drive them home? If so, that blows up the lack of knowledge argument. Again, if he drove Miles and Davis home, his camera better have caught his passengers threatening him to either drive or get shot. Otherwise, how is Miller not an accessory?

So, there you have it. I told you it would be long.
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So the best case is that Miller got in his car at 1:30ish a.m. to bring a gun to Miles, but did not know what it was going to be used for.

The medium bad case is he knew of a dispute between Miles/Davis and the victim as being behind the request to bring a gun.

The worse case is he knew that Miles/Davis planned to shoot the victim.

Honestly, the first one is .... hard to believe.
 
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#215
#215
lawgator1 said:
So the best case is that Miller got in his car at 1:30ish a.m. to bring a gun to Miles, but did not know what it was going to be used for.
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I think that assumes more than can be assumed. If Miller's attorney is correct and Miller was already en route when Miles sent the text, then Miller didn't "get in his car... to bring a gun to Miles." Like I said the in the post you quoted, Miles sent the text at 1:38. The victims flagged down a cop by BDS at 1:45. So we're talking about a roughly five minute span between text and shooting. If Miller was not already en route when the text was sent, then he had to have been very close by, had to have seen the text almost immediately after it hit his phone, and had to have jumped into action very quickly.

That's why I don't think that the text is terribly helpful in determining MIller's culpability. What I think matters is whether or not he heard the discussion between Miles and Davis, and whether or not he drove the from the scene. The text can only go so far in establishing Miller's knowledge. His actions after he arrived at the scene would go much further.
 
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#216
#216
lawgator1 said:
So the best case is that Miller got in his car at 1:30ish a.m. to bring a gun to Miles, but did not know what it was going to be used for.

The medium bad case is he knew of a dispute between Miles/Davis and the victim as being behind the request to bring a gun.

The worse case is he knew that Miles/Davis planned to shoot the victim.

Honestly, the first one is .... hard to believe.
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I do believe that he will be a 'one and done' guy.

Totally shocked that Calipari missed on recruiting him.
 
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#217
#217
His friend asked him to bring his (the friends gun) I mean not a great idea but not a criminal activity. I mean If my friend asked me to bring him his gun id have some questions and try talking him down. That being said I'm 48....when I was 18-21 I woulda have probably just brought it no questions asked. Its a terrible situation and outcome but I mean the police are right.. what are they gonna charge the kid with? Not being a mature adult?
 
#218
#218
bamawriter said:
I think that assumes more than can be assumed. If Miller's attorney is correct and Miller was already en route when Miles sent the text, then Miller didn't "get in his car... to bring a gun to Miles." Like I said the in the post you quoted, Miles sent the text at 1:38. The victims flagged down a cop by BDS at 1:45. So we're talking about a roughly five minute span between text and shooting. If Miller was not already en route when the text was sent, then he had to have been very close by, had to have seen the text almost immediately after it hit his phone, and had to have jumped into action very quickly.

That's why I don't think that the text is terribly helpful in determining MIller's culpability. What I think matters is whether or not he heard the discussion between Miles and Davis, and whether or not he drove the from the scene. The text can only go so far in establishing Miller's knowledge. His actions after he arrived at the scene would go much further.
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So he already had the gun with him?

Is there another way he could have communicated? You reference a text but there'd be a record of a call too, before that, if there was one.
 
#219
#219
pimo1 said:
His friend asked him to bring his (the friends gun) I mean not a great idea but not a criminal activity. I mean If my friend asked me to bring him his gun id have some questions and try talking him down. That being said I'm 48....when I was 18-21 I woulda have probably just brought it no questions asked. Its a terrible situation and outcome but I mean the police are right.. what are they gonna charge the kid with? Not being a mature adult?
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Accessory before the fact?
 
#221
#221
bamawriter said:
Miles had been in Miller's car earlier in the night and left the gun.
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That info kind of changes the conversation and makes the police statement they had nothing to charge him with making even more sense. I mean I'd want the gun out of my car. Did he even know he wanted to do anything with the gun or just wanted it back?
 
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#222
#222
pimo1 said:
That info kind of changes the conversation and makes the police statement they had nothing to charge him with making even more sense. I mean I'd want the gun out of my car. Did he even know he wanted to do anything with the gun or just wanted it back?
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Wonder if there are texts about hey dude, get your gun the f out of my car!
 
#223
#223
pimo1 said:
That info kind of changes the conversation and makes the police statement they had nothing to charge him with making even more sense. I mean I'd want the gun out of my car. Did he even know he wanted to do anything with the gun or just wanted it back?
Click to expand...
lawgator1 said:
Wonder if there are texts about hey dude, get your gun the f out of my car!
Click to expand...

This is what we don't know. Did Miller know Miles had left the gun? I mean, I think there's a decent chance of that. That comes back around to the question of what Miller thought was happening when he arrived at ths scene.

As to LG's question, Miles' defense attorney and Miller's attorney both agree that the 1:38 a.m. text was the first point at which had requested his gun. Nothing that was said under oath by the detectives suggested otherwise. I guess one has to make of that what one will.
 
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#224
#224
Question:
Since Miller delivered the weapon to the shooter, does Miller get an assist?

Go VOLS
 
#225
#225
Consider an alternate scenario where Miller ran a stop sign before meeting Miles and the TPD pulled him over and saw the weapon was in the backseat. Does Miller just get a ticket and sent on his way or does the TPD escalate things even though Miller states he didn't know the gun was there?

How often do cops in general have someone tell them "I didn't know that gun was there" and they believe them ?
 
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