Barry or Emmitt

#76
#76
Teams weren't sold on him as a TE because he was too small. They were wrong. Cowboys didnt need him to block, so he got to play more. Get over the stats. Those Cowboys teams were the best of my lifetime and that includes the Steelers of Greene and Greenwood.
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Sorry, I'm not buying that. 1990-92 Pro Bowl TE's:

Jay Novacek = 6' 4" 234 lbs
Marv Cook = 6' 4" 234 lbs
Ethan Horton = 6' 4" 235 lbs
Steve Jordan = 6' 3" 236 lbs
Keith Jackson = 6' 2" 250 lbs
Rod Holman = 6' 3" 238 lbs
Ferrell Edmunds = 6' 6" 254 lbs
Brent Jones = 6' 4" 230 lbs
Shannon Sharpe = 6' 2" 228 lbs

Doesn't seem like he was undersized at all. By today's standard, yes. But he ain't playing today.
 
#77
#77
Sorry, I'm not buying that. 1990-92 Pro Bowl TE's:

Jay Novacek = 6' 4" 234 lbs
Marv Cook = 6' 4" 234 lbs
Ethan Horton = 6' 4" 235 lbs
Steve Jordan = 6' 3" 236 lbs
Keith Jackson = 6' 2" 250 lbs
Rod Holman = 6' 3" 238 lbs
Ferrell Edmunds = 6' 6" 254 lbs
Brent Jones = 6' 4" 230 lbs
Shannon Sharpe = 6' 2" 228 lbs

Doesn't seem like he was undersized at all. By today's standard, yes. But he ain't playing today.

I don't care what numbers you put up there. He was small and had bird legs. Couldn't block anyone. Your stat shows him as larger tha Shamnon Sharpe, which is stupid. And why avoid his size prior to his pro bowl seasons?
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#78
#78
I guess you guys didn't notice that I picked Barry Sanders earlier in the thread. That should have ended this thread. Argument over.
 
#79
#79
I don't care what numbers you put up there. He was small and had bird legs. Couldn't block anyone. Your stat shows him as larger tha Shamnon Sharpe, which is stupid. And why avoid his size prior to his pro bowl seasons?
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Stats never ever lie.
 
#80
#80
I seem to remember both Barry and Emmitt being dinged up a lot, but they played through their injuries. Both played a lot on AstroTurf and in an era when running backs refused to just step out of bounds to avoid a hit, instead turning into defenders to get an extra yard or two. Both had long careers for features backs; however, I want to believe that each would have still had more in the tank had they played on better surfaces.
 
#82
#82
Barry. That said, one should not discount Barry's line in Detroit; it was not as good as Dallas's but it was still damn good.
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In its best years, the line in Detroit was average. Glover had some good years at center and Lomas Brown played the bulk of his career there, but it was a lot of middling guys everywhere else.

Lomas Brown and Kevin Glover were good but they wouldn't have started in Dallas.

Also true.
 
#83
#83
You never heard of Herman Moore? He was so good that he enabled Scott Mitchell put up 4338 yards and 32 TD's in 1995. Aikman's career best in each category was only 3445 yards, and 23 TD's. The Lions had other weapons.

I'm sure that had nothing to do with Mitchell throwing the ball 583 times in that best season, compared to Aikman's 473. You also overlook (omit) the fact that Mitchell in Detroit the year prior was poor, and the two years after was also poor. He had one huge year, and that's it.

You might as well try to sell us on the idea of Don Majkowski's one big year meaning something.

Moore = 146 games, 9,174 yards, 670 receptions, 62 TD's
Irvin = 159 games, 11,904 yards, 750 receptions, 65 TD's

Wouldn't you agree it's a little inaccurate to say Barry had "no offensive weapons" around him? Moore did 100 catches for 3 straight seasons (including 123 which was a record). Irvin had 1 100-catch season.

You also ignore (omit) the fact that Moore had more opportunities to come up with catches due to the fact that the Lions threw the ball a ton. In his three best seasons (in terms of receptions), he had 123 catches out of 605 passes, 106 of 541, and 104 out of 540. Irvin had 93/500, 111/494, and 88/475.

In addition, you overlook (omit) the yards/catch, as well as the overall yards/attempt. Irvin never averaged below 14.3 yards/catch in any season of his career. Moore exceeded that level just four times, and his career average is below Irvin's worst mark. Yards/attempt...for Dallas, starting in 1991 and ending in 1998, goes 7.3, 7.3, 7.6, 7.7, 7.6, 6.7, 6.2, 7.5. For Detroit, going from 1992 to 1998, it goes 7.8, 6.8, 6.7, 7.5, 6.4, 6.7, 6.9.

Why's that important? What happens is that a poor team will tend to get down early and be unable to come back, so they start throwing the ball all over the place. The defense, now refusing to let the game change in one play, starts playing cover-7 or cover-8, ceding the short- and intermediate-range passes while also letting the clock run down. You know who had a lot of average receivers put up huge numbers? Guys like Drew Bledsoe, who threw the ball all over the place for that very reason. Very rarely do you see a high yards/attempt number with a poor record, but the 1992 Lions were one of those teams (7.8 y/a average, 5-11 record).
 
#84
#84
Only Dallas Cowboy fans think Emmitt was better.
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I don't.

Barry was more talented. My thinking is Emmitt Smith is the most accomplished RB of all time. Talent isn't everything. Barry has the talent. Emmitt has the accomplishments.

It's almost like an MJ vs Wilt discussion. Wilt and Barry had more talent. MJ and Emmitt had more drive, great talent, and the right situation to become the most accomplished players. I'll take those results over the superior talent Wilt and Barry had.
Bottom line question: If you're assembling a team with any player in history at the peak of their career, who do you take?

I rave about Dallas' line because Johnson built it to slam the ball down your throat and did it better than anyone else.
Mad truth. Watching that offense was a thing of majesty. The phrase "more than the sum of its parts" comes to mind.
 
#85
#85
I don't care what numbers you put up there. He was small and had bird legs. Couldn't block anyone. Your stat shows him as larger tha Shamnon Sharpe, which is stupid. And why avoid his size prior to his pro bowl seasons?
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?

I just used the players' respective listed weights on football-reference.com
 
#86
#86
I'm sure that had nothing to do with Mitchell throwing the ball 583 times in that best season, compared to Aikman's 473. You also overlook (omit) the fact that Mitchell in Detroit the year prior was poor, and the two years after was also poor. He had one huge year, and that's it.

You might as well try to sell us on the idea of Don Majkowski's one big year meaning something.



You also ignore (omit) the fact that Moore had more opportunities to come up with catches due to the fact that the Lions threw the ball a ton. In his three best seasons (in terms of receptions), he had 123 catches out of 605 passes, 106 of 541, and 104 out of 540. Irvin had 93/500, 111/494, and 88/475.

In addition, you overlook (omit) the yards/catch, as well as the overall yards/attempt. Irvin never averaged below 14.3 yards/catch in any season of his career. Moore exceeded that level just four times, and his career average is below Irvin's worst mark. Yards/attempt...for Dallas, starting in 1991 and ending in 1998, goes 7.3, 7.3, 7.6, 7.7, 7.6, 6.7, 6.2, 7.5. For Detroit, going from 1992 to 1998, it goes 7.8, 6.8, 6.7, 7.5, 6.4, 6.7, 6.9.

Why's that important? What happens is that a poor team will tend to get down early and be unable to come back, so they start throwing the ball all over the place. The defense, now refusing to let the game change in one play, starts playing cover-7 or cover-8, ceding the short- and intermediate-range passes while also letting the clock run down. You know who had a lot of average receivers put up huge numbers? Guys like Drew Bledsoe, who threw the ball all over the place for that very reason. Very rarely do you see a high yards/attempt number with a poor record, but the 1992 Lions were one of those teams (7.8 y/a average, 5-11 record).

What's your point in this 1000 word essay? I am not saying Moore = Irvin. I was disproving the idea that Barry had "no offensive weapons" around him. I am not saying Scott Mitchell was even good. Try to keep up. You'd save yourself a lot of breath.
 
#87
#87
What's your point in this 1000 word essay? I am not saying Moore = Irvin. I was disproving the idea that Barry had "no offensive weapons" around him. I am not saying Scott Mitchell was even good. Try to keep up. You'd save yourself a lot of breath.

So you're saying Barry was surrounded by mediocre talent?

The Cowboys had a better OL, better TEs, better WRs and a better QB and it's not anywhere near close.

Also, look at the coaching staffs Emmitt had compared to Barry.
 
#89
#89
I don't.


Bottom line question: If you're assembling a team with any player in history at the peak of their career, who do you take?


Mad truth. Watching that offense was a thing of majesty. The phrase "more than the sum of its parts" comes to mind.

Joe Montana.
 
#90
#90
So you're saying Barry was surrounded by mediocre talent?

The Cowboys had a better OL, better TEs, better WRs and a better QB and it's not anywhere near close.

Also, look at the coaching staffs Emmitt had compared to Barry.

?

Emmitt's best season was 1995. They had:

Irvin = 1603 yards
Kevin Williams = 613 yards (and no other WR had 100 yards or a TD)

Barry's best season was 1997. They had:

Moore = 1293 yards
Johnny Morton = 1057 yards
 
#91
#91
Also, Barry gets dinged for (1) the timing of his retirement, and (2) that his style of running was overvalued. Sure he could have explosive games where he completely took over (and we were captivated), but with his unorthodox style he created many negative runs (I think most all time). A lot of that is on him and his style. Some of that is on his line. So Emmitt may likely get you 2-8 yards on any given carry, and Barry is much more likely to get you -4 to 15 yards. One of those styles gets you more total yards and a higher YPC, and the other enables more consistent game-planning.

We tend to remember the 75-yard runs Barry made, and we tend to forget the drives he killed with major losses dancing around in the backfield.

Yeah... and he was still one season away from breaking the all time rushing record. Weak, weak argument that will not die even after all of these years. if he lost so many yards and couldn't score touchdowns, it seems odd that he had so many yards and touchdowns on his resume.
 
#93
#93
Yeah... and he was still one season away from breaking the all time rushing record. Weak, weak argument that will not die even after all of these years. if he lost so many yards and couldn't score touchdowns, it seems odd that he had so many yards and touchdowns on his resume.

Who said anything about a lack of TD's? I never denied that he racked up yards. Anybody can see that. The point is the risk/return had greater variance for Barry and that's not always a good thing.
 
#94
#94
Yeah... and he was still one season away from breaking the all time rushing record. Weak, weak argument that will not die even after all of these years. if he lost so many yards and couldn't score touchdowns, it seems odd that he had so many yards and touchdowns on his resume.

Brett Favre agrees with your post.
 

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