Bashing needs to stop

[sjt18]

You should know that I don't read beyond 3 sentences.
I'm sure you made some great points though.

So you don't read past 3 sentences but have drawn an opinion about me... and I am the troll?

 

[Orangeslice13]

So you don't read past 3 sentences but have drawn an opinion about me... and I am the troll?

There is plenty of evidence in the first 3 sentences of your posts. I can't imagine they improve if I read further

 

[allvol123]

Don't make things so personal when someone disagrees with you.

Your opinion based on whatever warm feeling you have plus his record before UT is your business. But then you attack people who simply point out that he did not win and did not look very competitive much of the time this past year. I can't predict either way. Sometimes slow starters turn out good... sometimes it is an indication of their real talent. What I can say is that he did not "succeed" as a coach this year with regard to winning or coaching this roster to its potential.



Why? What makes you think you are "smarter" for making a prediction about the future of a coach when so many unknown variables are involved?

I can't control how other people take things. Just not possible.

I am a good judge of people, not an easy skill to describe. Plus, his record speaks more favorably of my belief, than of you constant nitpicking of a team in shambles.

I've seen it in my professional life with hires I've made and I see it in others of life also. Whether you believe it or not...I don't care.

I've stuck my flag in the ground. You do what you do.

 

[sjt18]

I can't control how other people take things. Just not possible.

I am a good judge of people, not an easy skill to describe. Plus, his record speaks more favorably of my belief, than of you constant nitpicking of a team in shambles.

I've seen it in my professional life with hires I've made and I see it in others of life also. Whether you believe it or not...I don't care.

I've stuck my flag in the ground. You do what you do.

Unless you are much closer to Jones than you have let on then you simply do not have the information to make the kind of judgment you make with people you know on a personal basis. At best, you are making that assessment on his public persona. At worst, it is an affinity for a certain personality type that does not prove he has the coaching skill to compete in the SEC.

So no. Whether your guess is right or wrong... I do not buy your "gut feel" for someone you really and truly do not know.

 

[allvol123]

Unless you are much closer to Jones than you have let on then you simply do not have the information to make the kind of judgment you make with people you know on a personal basis. At best, you are making that assessment on his public persona. At worst, it is an affinity for a certain personality type that does not prove he has the coaching skill to compete in the SEC.

So no. Whether your guess is right or wrong... I do not buy your "gut feel" for someone you really and truly do not know.

You're on it dude.

My gut feel on his overall coaching record. Gut feel on his recruiting. Gut feel on a win over a top 10 team. Gut feel on APR scores.

Can't wait for 2 years when you explain how his coaching finally came around.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I made a special effort and read your entire post. You're a troll just not a rival fan troll. You are a Fulmer troll

 

[sjt18]

I am a good judge of people, not an easy skill to describe.

I am described by mgrs around me as a very good and intuitive judge of people. You can never just "trust your gut" or much less insufficient information.

It is both a system and a skill.

Plus, his record speaks more favorably of my belief, than of you constant nitpicking of a team in shambles.

Does it? Did you just look at the surface or what he actually did at Cincy, what the circumstances were, and who he beat?

It is "good"... not great.

 

[sjt18]

I made a special effort and read your entire post. You're a troll just not a rival fan troll. You are a Fulmer troll

Umm, nope. But namecalling says a great deal about you unfortunately.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Umm, nope. But namecalling says a great deal about you unfortunately.

No name calling. Just pointing out the facts you brought up.
You have an adjenda. You're are still mad about Fulmer

 

[sjt18]

No name calling. Just pointing out the facts you brought up.
You have an adjenda. You're are still mad about Fulmer

I can PROMISE that is not true... and you can ask plenty of folks around here who are. I've irritated them much more than you.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I can PROMISE that is not true... and you can ask plenty of folks around here who are. I've irritated them much more than you.

Irritated?
I thought we were talking.

 

[theutvolunteers]

wake up! We have a four win season! Wake up people that is terrible!

.

 

[sjt18]

Irritated?
I thought we were talking.

OK. You seemed irritated when you started looking for a way to call me a troll and started drawing opinions without reading mine.

 

[Orangeslice13]

OK. You seemed irritated when you started looking for a way to call me a troll and started drawing opinions without reading mine.

I've read enough. You say the same things a lot. How about this. By calling you a troll I mean you're being disingenuous. You have an adjenda that goes beyond believing Coach Jones isn't the guy.
You can't even admitt that Coach Jones did anything positive this year.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

Why wold this year's work make one skeptical? . . . .

I have been generally optimistic about CBJ. I absolutely want him to be successful here. I love his personality. I don't think it is near the "car salesman" type of persona that some at VN have accused. I personally believe he is mostly genuine even if mixed with a bit of scripted campiness.

But, then there was the Vanderbilt game.

That game was significant because it was the last home game and the Vandy friction has risen quite a bit with their recent successes. But most importantly, they stood between the Vols and a bowl bid which was valuable for an infinite number of reasons.

It was absolutely arguable that the Vanderbilt game - in the context of how the season played out - was the most important game of the year. In that most important game, the team came out flatter than they had been all year. They started awful, and despite VU's repeated efforts to give us the game, the Vols remained awful.

I know that VU probably had a better team, and maybe 9 times out of 10, they SHOULD win. But, that night was the one time that Tennessee should have won. It was ours for the taking, and we did not take it.

Champions have a way of getting the very most out of themselves when it matters the most. We got the worst. The team probably played their worst game of the year. I cannot dismiss that, and I have to attribute the lack of intensity and the awkward play to the coaches to some degree. I cannot give them a free pass.

Of course, I cannot dismiss their play against Georgia and SC. In those games, I think it is very fair to say that the team performed somewhere close to the top of its potential. If I am going to hang the downside on CBJ and company, I have to give them credit where credit is due.

Inconsistency was the word for the season. Unfortunately, inconsistency is the path to mediocrity in football - especially in the SEC.

So, I remain skeptical. Not a negavol by any means, but skeptical. Hopefully, after a few games next season, I will be less so.

 

[volfan411]

I have been generally optimistic about CBJ. I absolutely want him to be successful here. I love his personality. I don't think it is near the "car salesman" type of persona that some at VN have accused. I personally believe he is mostly genuine even if mixed with a bit of scripted campiness.

But, then there was the Vanderbilt game.

That game was significant because it was the last home game and the Vandy friction has risen quite a bit with their recent successes. But most importantly, they stood between the Vols and a bowl bid which was valuable for an infinite number of reasons.

It was absolutely arguable that the Vanderbilt game - in the context of how the season played out - was the most important game of the year. In that most important game, the team came out flatter than they had been all year. They started awful, and despite VU's repeated efforts to give us the game, the Vols remained awful.

I know that VU probably had a better team, and maybe 9 times out of 10, they SHOULD win. But, that night was the one time that Tennessee should have won. It was ours for the taking, and we did not take it.

Champions have a way of getting the very most out of themselves when it matters the most. We got the worst. The team probably played their worst game of the year. I cannot dismiss that, and I have to attribute the lack of intensity and the awkward play to the coaches to some degree. I cannot give them a free pass.

Of course, I cannot dismiss their play against Georgia and SC. In those games, I think it is very fair to say that the team performed somewhere close to the top of its potential. If I am going to hang the downside on CBJ and company, I have to give them credit where credit is due.

Inconsistency was the word for the season. Unfortunately, inconsistency is the path to mediocrity in football - especially in the SEC.

So, I remain skeptical. Not a negavol by any means, but skeptical. Hopefully, after a few games next season, I will be less so.

I agree with most of what you say and I too think the jury is still out on BJ but what I disagree with is the team playing it worst game of the year against Vandy. I think the defense probably played their best overall game of the year in that game and the offense let them down. They held Vandy under their season total in points and produced key TO's that should have won the game for us. I do believe the offense went into a shell after Dobbs 2 ints and the staff tried to play to conservative and that cost us the game. JMO

 

[sjt18]

I've read enough. You say the same things a lot. How about this. By calling you a troll I mean you're being disingenuous.

That would be completely and totally false. I am completely sincere about the concerns I have about this staff.

You have an adjenda that goes beyond believing Coach Jones isn't the guy.

That cannot be true because I am not sure he isn't the guy. I am simply VERY troubled by the coaching performance this season. You said you had "read enough" so you should be aware that I have a BUNCH of reasons for saying that.

The only "agenda" I have is for UT to win games and championships. No others. I support coaches only in as much as they are coaches who we hope will achieve those goals. I have no personal loyalties to any of them that comes close to loyalty for the program itself.

I respect what Fulmer did for the program but was very critical of him and some pretty glaring flaws. IMO, the worst flaw was that he held personal loyalties to players and coaches above loyalty to the team and program as a whole. He tolerated guys like Randy Sanders and it probably got him fired.

You can't even admitt that Coach Jones did anything positive this year.

Sure I can.

He's recruited very well and brought an energy and excitement to the program that attracts good players. He's stayed positive and hopeful in spite of a subpar season. 123 and I apparently have at least some common experience with leading/managing people... he more than likely understands how difficult it is to remain positive when your efforts seem to be going to naught.

What he's done with the alumni is impressive and down right brilliant. He may need that good will to get a 4th year if the coaching does not improve and/or breaks go against him. Talent should not be an issue if he can get to six wins next fall and land another solid class in '15.

I have consistently said I respect the shot he took with Peterman vs UF. It probably cost UT a game. He still owns that loss. But it was a gutsy call.

I have said the UGA and USCe games were good ones by the players and the staff. I think it was a solid strategy to try to play UGA close to grab a win at the end. I was VERY disappointed he thought he had to do the same thing with VANDY. He should have smacked Vandy around as bad as he did UK. The UK game was not as close as the score.


What to me outweighs this is losing to Vandy and being totally uncompetitive vs Oregon, Bama, MU, and AU. Those are certainly very good teams. I can swallow the losses... I cannot feel good about his staff not even being able to keep the Vols in any of those games for a half. Even Dooley did that.

There are other things (like statistics, lack of development of "depth" and back ups, adjustments, playcalling,...) but those things are primary. UT MUST have a staff that can outcoach opponents regardless of talent differentials. If even one of those games had been close... that would have counted as at least some proof that they could.


BTW, I have also said that I think the O will be fine over time. I am MUCH more concerned about the D staff regardless of talent.

 

[volfan411]

That would be completely and totally false. I am completely sincere about the concerns I have about this staff. That cannot be true because I am not sure he isn't the guy. I am simply VERY troubled by the coaching performance this season. You said you had "read enough" so you should be aware that I have a BUNCH of reasons for saying that.

The only "agenda" I have is for UT to win games and championships. No others. I support coaches only in as much as they are coaches who we hope will achieve those goals. I have no personal loyalties to any of them that comes close to loyalty for the program itself.

I respect what Fulmer did for the program but was very critical of him and some pretty glaring flaws. IMO, the worst flaw was that he held personal loyalties to players and coaches above loyalty to the team and program as a whole. He tolerated guys like Randy Sanders and it probably got him fired.


Sure I can.

He's recruited very well and brought an energy and excitement to the program that attracts good players. He's stayed positive and hopeful in spite of a subpar season. 123 and I apparently have at least some common experience with leading/managing people... he more than likely understands how difficult it is to remain positive when your efforts seem to be going to naught.

What he's done with the alumni is impressive and down right brilliant. He may need that good will to get a 4th year if the coaching does not improve and/or breaks go against him. Talent should not be an issue if he can get to six wins next fall and land another solid class in '15.

I have consistently said I respect the shot he took with Peterman vs UF. It probably cost UT a game. He still owns that loss. But it was a gutsy call.

I have said the UGA and USCe games were good ones by the players and the staff. I think it was a solid strategy to try to play UGA close to grab a win at the end. I was VERY disappointed he thought he had to do the same thing with VANDY. He should have smacked Vandy around as bad as he did UK. The UK game was not as close as the score.


What to me outweighs this is losing to Vandy and being totally uncompetitive vs Oregon, Bama, MU, and AU. Those are certainly very good teams. I can swallow the losses... I cannot feel good about his staff not even being able to keep the Vols in any of those games for a half. Even Dooley did that.

There are other things (like statistics, lack of development of "depth" and back ups, adjustments, playcalling,...) but those things are primary. UT MUST have a staff that can outcoach opponents regardless of talent differentials. If even one of those games had been close... that would have counted as at least some proof that they could.


BTW, I have also said that I think the O will be fine over time. I am MUCH more concerned about the D staff regardless of talent.

Stats really do not back up what you are sying about the defense in 2012 we allowed 4.8 ypc and 188 ypg rushing and in and in 2013 we allowed 5.3 ypc and 207 ypg rushing which is close in numbers but the big difference is the yards per passing per game in 2012 we allowed a average of 12.5 ypc and 282 ypg and in 2013 we allowed 12.7 ypc and 211 ypg receiving.

I know you are going to say the passing yards are down due to teams running it so well but last year teams threw it well and the rushing yards were still close so statically the defense was better IMO. Now when you say in game adjustments and development of talent I due agree with you but me or you do not have the luxury of watching practice so we have no idea if that is on the coach or player. I know me and you both were wondering where Jones was late and LWS say he tried to play but just could not and needs the off season to completely heal.

 

[sjt18]

Stats really do not back up what you are sying about the defense in 2012 we allowed 4.8 ypc and 188 ypg rushing and in and in 2013 we allowed 5.3 ypc and 207 ypg rushing which is close in numbers but the big difference is the yards per passing per game in 2012 we allowed a average of 12.5 ypc and 282 ypg and in 2013 we allowed 12.7 ypc and 211 ypg receiving.

You've confused me. I am not sure of the point you are making but those look like pretty consistently bad results in both years.

I would think better coaching would lead to some tangible improvement, right?

I know you are going to say the passing yards are down due to teams running it so well but last year teams threw it well and the rushing yards were still close so statically the defense was better IMO. Now when you say in game adjustments and development of talent I due agree with you but me or you do not have the luxury of watching practice so we have no idea if that is on the coach or player. I know me and you both were wondering where Jones was late and LWS say he tried to play but just could not and needs the off season to completely heal.

I don't think '13 v '12 is the comparison to be made. Sunseri was horrible and Dooley was pretty much done by mid-season and everyone knew it... except maybe Hart. The better comparison is '13 v '10. Pretty similar situations and problems. Wilcox did much better than Jancek at making lemonade out of his lemons.

 

[volfan411]

You've confused me. I am not sure of the point you are making but those look like pretty consistently bad results in both years.

I would think better coaching would lead to some tangible improvement, right?



I don't think '13 v '12 is the comparison to be made. Sunseri was horrible and Dooley was pretty much done by mid-season and everyone knew it... except maybe Hart. The better comparison is '13 v '10. Pretty similar situations and problems. Wilcox did much better than Jancek at making lemonade out of his lemons.

I am not trying to imply that either year was good but only that while they were not big steps for the defense with the same players as last year they did make baby steps this year under Jancek. I think without the key injuries to the d line we probably would have bigger improvements though out the season.

I summed up the defense as a roller coaster this year they improved each game up to the SC game and then took a nose dive for 3 games and then I thought recovered and showed improvement in the last 2 games.

 

[Orangeslice13]

You've confused me. I am not sure of the point you are making but those look like pretty consistently bad results in both years.

I would think better coaching would lead to some tangible improvement, right?



I don't think '13 v '12 is the comparison to be made. Sunseri was horrible and Dooley was pretty much done by mid-season and everyone knew it... except maybe Hart. The better comparison is '13 v '10. Pretty similar situations and problems. Wilcox did much better than Jancek at making lemonade out of his lemons.

This is where we disconnect.

I thought before the season a top sec coach could win 6 games with this group. I thought the only way we would know anything is if we won 8-10 or 3-4. This team finished right where I thought they would
Just like with CDD I thought we wouldn't know what was coaching and what was talent till the end of year 2.

Is this unreasonable, and if so why?

 

[volfan411]

You've confused me. I am not sure of the point you are making but those look like pretty consistently bad results in both years.

I would think better coaching would lead to some tangible improvement, right?



I don't think '13 v '12 is the comparison to be made. Sunseri was horrible and Dooley was pretty much done by mid-season and everyone knew it... except maybe Hart. The better comparison is '13 v '10. Pretty similar situations and problems. Wilcox did much better than Jancek at making lemonade out of his lemons.

2010 numbers were 4.2 ypr and 152 yards per game rushing and 11.8 ypc and 229 yard per game passing.

The big difference was in 2010 we had 26 sacks and this year only had 18. Which I believe hammers home the point that the injuries to the d line really hampered the play of the d.

 

[volfan411]

This is where we disconnect.

I thought before the season a top sec coach could win 6 games with this group. I thought the only way we would know anything is if we won 8-10 or 3-4. This team finished right where I thought they would
Just like with CDD I thought we wouldn't know what was coaching and what was talent till the end of year 2.

Is this unreasonable, and if so why?

I do not think it is unreasonable. I think the only fair comparison from last year is the defense and stat wise they have showed improvement with basically the same players. Are they improvement we all would like to see? No but there were injuries to key cogs of the defense and obvious talent issues.

Would BJ admit that the staff needed to do better. I am sure he would but some of the criticism they are taking is not warranted for a staff in year one of a rebuild.

 

[sjt18]

This is where we disconnect.

I thought before the season a top sec coach could win 6 games with this group.

No disconnect yet. I thought the roster was good enough that a "good" coaching effort would produce six wins. I said that 7 would be a very positive statement and that 5 would leave lots of concerns/questions.

I thought the only way we would know anything is if we won 8-10 or 3-4. This team finished right where I thought they would

I think 7 would have been a positive sign. That would have been at least one win IMO where Jones outcoached a more talented team. The Vandy loss really sticks in my craw.

Just like with CDD I thought we wouldn't know what was coaching and what was talent till the end of year 2.

No real disconnect here either though I thought year 3 would be his first real opportunity to do something impressive. He did... he coached a 10+ win roster to 5 wins.

Is this unreasonable, and if so why?

We agree in principle. I think it is some of the fine points that we are conflicting on. I didn't "expect" to be at five wins if Jones is the right guy. That's why I am skeptical. He lost to a team he should have beaten. USCe was a good win but their roster issues were very similar to UT's so it wasn't really a big win over a much more talented team.

Maybe you have some of the same concerns. I am just not as hesitant to say them this time round. I want reasons that earn "patience" and understanding... not words. I would have really liked to have seen something that indicated these guys are ready for primetime.

As for Jones personally, he has a ton of qualities UT needs in a HC. I am VERY concerned he chose the wrong DC and that his survival may hinge on what he or that DC eventually does about it.

 

[GAVol]

USCe was a good win but their roster issues were very similar to UT's so it wasn't really a big win over a much more talented team.

That's nuts.