Battle of Madison

#276
#276
utgibbs said:
The contradictions are many, but I want to know if you believe or desire a meritocracy. From the numerous posts on here, I would assume most of you do, and yet BPV tells me you don't.

Let's answer this basic question before moving on to the contradictions.

[I've said teachers deserve their pension, and an estate tax as one of the most just levies, absolutely. Only the most mystified apologist would argue otherwise (and Warren Buffet has my back). However, I've never said people shouldn't get an inheritance. I just ask the question, if teachers who work 30 years for a pension don't deserve their pension, as droski intimates, why do you deserve an inheritance your forebears earned, and to which, you probably sucked up your fair share already anyway?]
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UTGibbs, can you please, in your own words, tell me what you believe money is and represents?
 
#277
#277
Gibbs, some of us have started to think you are a troll or fraud who is just trying to get a rise out of everyone.

The reason we think this is your stated "views" are so ridiculous and flagrantly detached from anything remotely similar to the "real world". Your view out the backyard more resembles Alice's Wonderland than anything those of us working in the "real world" daily see or experience.

Your stated views seem to draw such a caricature that some of us suspect it is one. You seem to be mocking your supposed position by the extreme things you say more so than defending it.
 
#278
#278
sjt18 said:
Gibbs, some of us have started to think you are a troll or fraud who is just trying to get a rise out of everyone.

The reason we think this is your stated "views" are so ridiculous and flagrantly detached from anything remotely similar to the "real world". Your view out the backyard more resembles Alice's Wonderland than anything those of us working in the "real world" daily see or experience.

Your stated views seem to draw such a caricature that some of us suspect it is one. You seem to be mocking your supposed position by the extreme things you say more so than defending it.
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I'm becoming convinced it's a study being done by a bored Poli Sci student.
 
#279
#279
sjt18 said:
Gibbs, some of us have started to think you are a troll or fraud who is just trying to get a rise out of everyone.

The reason we think this is your stated "views" are so ridiculous and flagrantly detached from anything remotely similar to the "real world". Your view out the backyard more resembles Alice's Wonderland than anything those of us working in the "real world" daily see or experience.

Your stated views seem to draw such a caricature that some of us suspect it is one. You seem to be mocking your supposed position by the extreme things you say more so than defending it.
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this...
 
#280
#280
utgibbs said:
And the contradictions keep on rolling.

I wonder how much court time is caught up in civil litigation regarding the handling of estates against the wishes of said dead person. Hmmmmm.

And if you truly believe in meritocracy, it is actually one of the first tenets of justice.

I want to know if people here believe in meritocracy or not.
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I believe in the rights and liberties spelled out in the USC. One of those rights is property. According our founders... and truly so... private property is one of the fundamental things that makes someone free.

I also believe that property rights along with the other rights originally guaranteed by our country enable people with nothing to "merit" more in their lifetime than any other system. I particularly do not believe that a system that does not recognize property rights and attempts to "level the playing field" by human interference WILL EVER benefit those who merit the most success.

IOW's, the system of individual sovereignty and rights designed by "Enlightenment" geniuses like Jefferson and Madison has demonstrated itself to create the best environment for achievers to attain what they merit. Your utopian statist models of imposed fairness... have never worked nor will they.
 
#281
#281
Answer to Gibbs (if you agree just nod or something):

I do NOT believe in a meritocracy as you seem to have in mind- attempting to arbitrarily and artificially "level the playing field". I DO NOT because there is no one on earth wise enough or well informed enough to make the field any more "level" that it is now.

I believe in a system that protects the legitimate rights and liberties of everyone thus allowing each individual to achieve all that their abilities and efforts merit.
 
#282
#282
droski said:
can't say i've seen anyone become a billionare by being paid by our taxpayers. .
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I can and that's a huge part of the problem. Ross Perot did. Much of Soros' wealth came from political connections rather than any kind of "merit" for building a business or producing a product that made life better for anyone.

Big gov't, big business, big labor, etc are NOT enemies. They are at best friendly rivals and at worst in collusion for mutual benefit. It is not an accident that Dems and establishment Republicans (the Progressives) get most of the big business AND big labor money. It is certainly no accident they get ALL the money from the public sector unions.
 
#283
#283
Where has this meritocracy that most of us apparently want come from? Who in the world has argued for it? How does it equate to justice? Who decides what is meritorious? In the end, it more silliness.

It doesn't measure up to the lunacy that brought us the term economic justice, but it's close.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#286
#286
sjt18 said:
Answer to Gibbs (if you agree just nod or something):

I do NOT believe in a meritocracy as you seem to have in mind- attempting to arbitrarily and artificially "level the playing field". I DO NOT because there is no one on earth wise enough or well informed enough to make the field any more "level" that it is now.

I believe in a system that protects the legitimate rights and liberties of everyone thus allowing each individual to achieve all that their abilities and efforts merit.
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The government does have some responsibility to level the playing field but it's as good as it's going to get. There are certain policies in place currently that go way, way to far and have had bad side effects.

I had very humble beginnings but somehow I've been able to earn a bachelors degree and my showoff brother earned a PhD. I'd like for things to be easier on my kids than they were for me.
 
#287
#287
sjt18 said:
Gibbs, some of us have started to think you are a troll or fraud who is just trying to get a rise out of everyone.

The reason we think this is your stated "views" are so ridiculous and flagrantly detached from anything remotely similar to the "real world". Your view out the backyard more resembles Alice's Wonderland than anything those of us working in the "real world" daily see or experience.

Your stated views seem to draw such a caricature that some of us suspect it is one. You seem to be mocking your supposed position by the extreme things you say more so than defending it.
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Are y'all seriously, seriously colluding on this issue.

I'll be honest, I have no idea what a troll is, other than the one under the bridge of the Billy Goats Gruff story. I've got no conception what a UT fan on a sports board has to do with that.

Re: meritocracy. A meritocracy, by definition, requires the same starting line. Iniquity is obviously permitted based on the luck, skills, work of the individuals, but everybody has to start from the same starting point, otherwise you don't have a meritocracy.

However, even in Rawls theory of justice, iniquity would be tolerated behind the "veil of ignorance" so long as the iniquity was in service of the least able. This, then, is a meritocracy v2.0 - a significant upgrade.
 
#288
#288
azVolFan said:
:ermm:

Completely and shamefully irresponsible.
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It was a joke.

However, the article is very light on details. And it's not like that isn't a commonplace either; Plants are very, very typical strategies of obfuscation used by police, feds, CIA, etc. Absolutely commonplace.
 
#289
#289
BigPapaVol said:
Where has this meritocracy that most of us apparently want come from? Who in the world has argued for it? How does it equate to justice? Who decides what is meritorious? In the end, it more silliness.

It doesn't measure up to the lunacy that brought us the term economic justice, but it's close.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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The "merit" is predefined as personal skill, ability, work ethic, drive, determination, etc. It is also luck of the gene pool - great athlete, great flute player, great painter, etc.

A "meritocracy" in and of itself does not equate to justice. It's better than feudalism; it's better than fascism. However, it does leave A LOT to the gene pool lottery.

Rawls, in his theory of justice, says what we would all decide, if we were behind the "veil of ignorance" (if you don't want to do the thought experiment, then please, don't complain afterwards) is something akin to a meritocracy so long as the system worked for the least advantaged. As an example of what we wouldn't choose behind the "veil of ignorance," argues Rawls, we would not choose utilitarianism since we might be numbered among the most exploited minority ensuring the happiness of the majority. Makes sense to me.
 
#290
#290
utgibbs said:
I'll be honest, I have no idea what a troll is, other than the one under the bridge of the Billy Goats Gruff story. I've got no conception what a UT fan on a sports board has to do with that.
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See, it's not your actual views that you share here that makes me think you are a troll. It's the language you use and the manner in which you present your beliefs that makes me think you are just messing with people. "game, set, match", 800 lb gorillas, etc.

And now you claim to have no concept of what we could possibly even mean by using the word "troll" in the context of an internet forum. And don't bother to look it up or google it.
 
#291
#291
azVolFan said:
I had very humble beginnings but somehow I've been able to earn a bachelors degree and my showoff brother earned a PhD. I'd like for things to be easier on my kids than they were for me.
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I grew up in a southern Appalachian county that was usually the poorest in the state. We almost always had the highest unemployment. I went to college on scholarships and high interest loans. Somehow my lower middle class parents made too much to get grants but not enough for them to pay my way.

After college I felt the pointy end of reverse discrimination for career I wanted. At various times during my life I have been knocked down and even treated unfairly.

I don't want gov't favors and resent the FACT that others who experience less "hardship" than I have will be arbitrarily given a step up by gov't fiat. If you don't earn it, you shouldn't get it... OR demand it. That's why I HATE what these people are doing in Madison. They need to quit whining and crying like a bunch of spoiled kids and get back to work.
 
#292
#292
IPorange said:
See, it's not your actual views that you share here that makes me think you are a troll. It's the language you use and the manner in which you present your beliefs that makes me think you are just messing with people. "game, set, match", 800 lb gorillas, etc.

And now you claim to have no concept of what we could possibly even mean by using the word "troll" in the context of an internet forum. And don't bother to look it up or google it.
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I've stated (often) I use the bravado and dogmatism because it is a sports board - something akin to sports radio machismo.

I almost always only bust out Game, Set, and Match on the Gang of Five (kpt, VolDad, SGM, Hat, VKA - BPV is GoF emeritus) and their closest acolytes (e.g. utvolpj).

I think I'm very good about not descending to using "idiot" with anybody, although I'm endlessly assailed with names.

I'm not sure how I google "800 lbs gorilla" to find "troll". What exactly is the problem though? It seems, the way it is now often used by everybody but me, it must have been good fun.

Perhaps you should just lighten up? :hi:
 
#293
#293
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
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Hmmm, this was my OP, IP.

Or is Wikipedia too weak a source? I should think this is close enough to the definition you had in mind.

What is more hilarious is the number of "why didn't you answer, Gibbs!!!???!!!" if I happen to miss a response somewhere.

:dunno:
 
#295
#295
utgibbs said:
Hmmm, this was my OP, IP.

Or is Wikipedia too weak a source? I should think this is close enough to the definition you had in mind.

What is more hilarious is the number of "why didn't you answer, Gibbs!!!???!!!" if I happen to miss a response somewhere.

:dunno:
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I was thinking more of the "provoking users into a desired emotional response." Right before what you bolded.
 
#298
#298
IPorange said:
I was thinking more of the "provoking users into a desired emotional response." Right before what you bolded.
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And I thought that part was inapplicable to a Politics / Sports forum. If you have no emotional connection to the Vols, and if you have no beliefs, why would you post on VN or on a Politics forum?

In retrospect, this has come from a post by droski who, IMHO, and I thought this at the time, was just trying to get an emotional response out of me!

And, I have to ask, how does "800 lbs gorilla throwing you out of the duck blind" generate an emotional response in .... anybody?
 
#299
#299
utgibbs said:
Are y'all seriously, seriously colluding on this issue.

I'll be honest, I have no idea what a troll is, other than the one under the bridge of the Billy Goats Gruff story. I've got no conception what a UT fan on a sports board has to do with that.
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A troll is someone who makes antagonistic statements for no other reason then to get a response. Usually they don't even reflect the opinion or at least the extreme of the opinion of the troll.

Re: meritocracy. A meritocracy, by definition, requires the same starting line. Iniquity is obviously permitted based on the luck, skills, work of the individuals, but everybody has to start from the same starting point, otherwise you don't have a meritocracy.
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Don't want one. I knew what you were talking about... simply don't want it. If I work hard and save then it is not "equitable" for my kids to have the same starting point of someone who doesn't work as hard as I do.

Further, I would NEVER want to sacrifice my legitimate property rights to this "meritocracy". What I earn is mine to give to whoever I choose. It is not yours. Not the gov't's.

Again I ask you, how did you miss the lesson about things that belong to others don't belong to you?

However, even in Rawls theory of justice, iniquity would be tolerated behind the "veil of ignorance" so long as the iniquity was in service of the least able. This, then, is a meritocracy v2.0 - a significant upgrade.
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No. Period. Your ideals do not trump my rights. My property is not yours. It is mine. I will give it to my children because that is a BIG reason for my having worked and saved and avoided the excessive materialism that has sunk many other families... Families by the way that your side now insists that I subsidize.
 
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