Battle of Madison

#226
#226
droski said:
every dime the rich make is taken off the backs of the average american. this isn't complicated.
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Actually, it would be far easier for me to justify the elimination of inheritance (after all, you believe in a meritocracy, don't you?) than your farcical assertion about the pensions.
 
#227
#227
utgibbs said:
Actually, it would be far easier for me to justify the elimination of inheritance (after all, you believe in a meritocracy, don't you?) than your farcical assertion about the pensions.
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who in the hell is arguing for a meritocracy? That's absurd.
 
#228
#228
utgibbs said:
Actually, it would be far easier for me to justify the elimination of inheritance (after all, you believe in a meritocracy, don't you?) than your farcical assertion about the pensions.
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they aren't getting 80% of their last years salary in retirement?
 
#233
#233
oklavol said:
Teachers work 9 months out of the year, and get 3 months off, take that into account.

Math and sciences teachers at the high school level should be well paid, better then they are now, but the rest are probably overpaid. It's not hard to replace a gym teacher, or a history teacher, or a 1st grade teacher, its the calculus teacher that's hard to replace.

Giving them all the same pay scale and treating them like they are all equal, they aren't. A gym teacher shouldn't be making the same pay as a high school physics or calculus teacher.
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You are assuming though, that just because they teach a specific subject, makes them a good teacher. My wife is a history teacher and works extremely hard and longer hours than I do and I know for a fact she is a much better teacher than a friend of mine who is a math teacher (and is terrible).

So should a bad math teacher be paid more than a good history teacher?
 
#234
#234
gibbs, you are either a fraud or are delusional.

You are saying those companies created no jobs, generated no wealth that spread into the Wisconsin economy, and did not prevent jobs from being lost when they chose not to leave the state, right? So somehow they made a ton of money... and then ate it. Gotcha.

When the Progressives took over about 100 years ago... there was little if any federal money going to social or corporate welfare. The reality, whether you want to accept it or not, is that both parties were progressives and largely Keynesian until Goldwater '64 screamed "the emperor has no clothes". It was another 16 years before that reality coalesced into a political movement strong enough to impact a national election.

Thirty years later, the Dems who have shared power over that period are still Progressive and command economists. The GOP has an internal battle between a Progressive-lite establishment and revolutionaries.

ALL, not part, but ALL of the root causes for the problems you protest are a product of 100 years of Progressive ideals being tried... and failing. We have seen you socialist idea of no private property or wealth fail miserably all over the world no matter how much power gov't was given.

The ideals you propose concerning economics closely parallel the economic ideals of fascism. A pile of dung by any other name is still a pile of dung.
 
#235
#235
JZVOL said:
You are assuming though, that just because they teach a specific subject, makes them a good teacher. My wife is a history teacher and works extremely hard and longer hours than I do and I know for a fact she is a much better teacher than a friend of mine who is a math teacher (and is terrible).

So should a bad math teacher be paid more than a good history teacher?
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have to agree with this. history teachers also teach a decent amount of writing in high school and i'd argue english is just as important (if not far more so) than math. i do have a PE teacher friend that basically is a glorified babysitter making the same as his english teacher wife. does seem a bit silly. he also got an online grad degree and now gets $5k more a year for the rest of his life. interestingly during their recent layoffs he wasn't targeted because the state mandates PE and he was one of the few teachers.
 
#237
#237
So if you are for choice in education, against extortion in public labor relations, for free speech, for freedom of religion, for property rights to include wealth, for association rights, for commerce rights, for the right to protect yourself by arms if necessary,... you are a fascist?How are you for any of these things given the policies you seem to support?

Those ARE the policies I support. I am not real complicated. Whatever will protect the rights of individuals and provide the most freedom for the most people is what I am for.
 
#238
#238
utvolpj said:
because he evidently can't differentiate between earned money and taken money
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And as usual you point out the contradiction: YOU can't differentiate between the above.

And, watch the contradictions now, SO, inheritance DOES belong to the state!

Thanks for that Game, Set, and Match moment. Positively delicious. :hi:
 
#239
#239
sjt18 said:
So if you are for choice in education, against extortion in public labor relations, for free speech, for freedom of religion, for property rights to include wealth, for association rights, for commerce rights, for the right to protect yourself by arms if necessary,... you are a fascist?How are you for any of these things given the policies you seem to support?

Those ARE the policies I support. I am not real complicated. Whatever will protect the rights of individuals and provide the most freedom for the most people is what I am for.
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Then you support a system whereby the needs of the individual / humanity are supreme over the needs of Capital?

Are you telling me, sjt, you are a socialist????

:hi:
 
#240
#240
utgibbs said:
And as usual you point out the contradiction: YOU can't differentiate between the above.

And, watch the contradictions now, SO, inheritance DOES belong to the state!

Thanks for that Game, Set, and Match moment. Positively delicious. :hi:
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then please explain how inheritance is public money (like I asked before and you conveniently skipped). Did the state not already get their cut of the earned money? Are you suggesting all earned money must be returned to the state after death?
 
#241
#241
utgibbs said:
Then you support a system whereby the needs of the individual / humanity are supreme over the needs of Capital?

Are you telling me, sjt, you are a socialist????

:hi:
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it's pure idiocy to argue the two are at odds.
 
#242
#242
utvolpj said:
then please explain how inheritance is public money (like I asked before and you conveniently skipped). Did the state not already get their cut of the earned money?
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because gibbs is a moron/fraud who just recently read that Michael Moore also thinks that private inheritance is public money.
 
#243
#243
If you want to start trading off "cuts"... I'm your huckleberry.
Doubt it. I guarantee I can beat your cuts looking at just one department.

Let's go. I am for a very, very, very limited gov't. Probably on par with what Stossel has in mind... BTW he's one of the few true journalists in the American media today. He is rightly suspicious of all concentrations of power... and is willing to expose any of them.

I'll start. You get these tax breaks that went to corporations, I get vouchers and a law that says public employee pay must never exceed 90% of a comparable private sector employee. The difference is made up in ease of work, employment security, and ridiculous retirement benefits. You, are not in the super majority.
So you mean to tell me the government creates "good jobs????????" Gotcha again.

So you attempt evasion again????? Gotcha again.

Apparently we define "good" differently. To me a "good" job is one that pays someone their market value in a sustainable way for doing a volume and quality of work that contributes more to the health of the company and/or economy as a whole than the sum of wages and benefits. IOW's, a "good" job is one that turns a profit for the employer and economy as a whole... a great job is one that rewards an employee for approaching their optimum value to the economy/employer.

I do not define as "good" jobs that pay someone significantly less or more than their value. Therefore... I am accepting that gov't jobs will continue to be "bad" even at the 90%. The only "good" job is one that is a win/win... win/loss or loss/win is NOT GOOD.
 
#244
#244
utgibbs said:
Then you support a system whereby the needs of the individual / humanity are supreme over the needs of Capital?

Are you telling me, sjt, you are a socialist????

:hi:
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Are you telling me you aren't coherent? Again, you are either a fraud or delusional... because I do not believe you to be ignorant.

Capital is inanimate. It does not have "needs".

Do I think that "big business" power must be limited somehow? Yes- along with labor, gov't, religion, etc. Simply put... nothing you have proposed promotes individual rights or liberties. You always seek to give some central authority control over and even ownership of the property of private individuals.
 
#245
#245
sjt18 said:
gibbs, you are either a fraud or are delusional.

You are saying those companies created no jobs, generated no wealth that spread into the Wisconsin economy, and did not prevent jobs from being lost when they chose not to leave the state, right? So somehow they made a ton of money... and then ate it. Gotcha.

That is almost exactly what happened. During this current crisis, there has been no job creation, no reinvestment. Companies have been hoarding.
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Banks were instructed by the FED not to loan, and companies have been hoarding, despite the feckless protests of the CATO Institute.

We are in a critical crisis of Capitalism, and the current thrust has been a drive towards monopoly (the MandAs of the last three years), a drive to hoard and / or assauge investor class (see unemployment rates + dividends making a comeback), and a the age old contradiction of the war against labor (see WI).

Capital accumulation is at its sharpest crisis since the 1970s during the "profit crisis". Unfortunately for all of humanity we have very little wiggle room left.
 
#246
#246
sjt18 said:
Are you telling me you aren't coherent? Again, you are either a fraud or delusional... because I do not believe you to be ignorant.

Capital is inanimate. It does not have "needs". :jawdrop:

Do I think that "big business" power must be limited somehow? Yes- along with labor, gov't, religion, etc. Simply put... nothing you have proposed promotes individual rights or liberties. You always seek to give some central authority control over and even ownership of the property of private individuals.
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In the immortal words of Yoda, "Much to learn you still have."

It's not your fault. It's structural.
 
#247
#247
drive to hoard and / or assauge investor class (see unemployment rates + dividends making a comeback)

why would the investor class want high unemployment? do they enjoy negative stock returns?
 
#248
#248
@sjt -

I would cut the Defense and War budget by 60% minimum.

So, I've just raised you at minimum 400,000,000 and I would say it's been closer to 600,000,000,000.

Find your cuts, please.
 
#249
#249
droski said:
drive to hoard and / or assauge investor class (see unemployment rates + dividends making a comeback)

why would the investor class want high unemployment? do they enjoy negative stock returns?
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You are simply not serious now. I mean, you can't be.

I'm not even talking about "casual employment" in this instance.
 
#250
#250
utgibbs said:
@sjt -

I would cut the Defense and War budget by 60% minimum.

So, I've just raised you at minimum 400,000,000 and I would say it's been closer to 600,000,000,000.

Find your cuts, please.
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and you think that the fat will get cut? history proves that govt agencies respond to spending cuts by cutting service, not by getting more efficient.
 
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