Bernie Sanders Thread

[FLVOL_79]

The problem is that those same jobs were close to $50 (in today's dollars) back then, and the average worker production and efficiency is much higher now than then (due to specialized training and technology).

So workers are paid less despite more production, while CEOs are making out like bandits in comparison to what they made back then.

Both sides agree that the middle class is struggling. Is it not apparent that the above might be SOME of the cause?

As for the CEO making 18 million? As long as his workers have been seeing their wages increase at the same rate as he has seen over the past few decades, that's totally fine. But they aren't. Average worker wages have stagnated or shrunk and executives have seen their pay skyrocket (as seen above with current pay being between $16-20 an hour)

The trend in business over the last few decades has been to do more with less. Less pay, more work. I first witnessed it in the USAF where I initially had a very specialized job (6 pieces of equipment) which I was really good at which then got absorbed into a career field with over 70 pieces of equipment that I was good at but never as accomplished as in my previous job. Advances in technology, mainly automation, has made many jobs irrelevant or not worth the money.

Ex..Our old tower had a position where a controller took flight information, wrote it down, put it into a container, then down a tube (like a bank) to another air traffic control site. Well eventually we got computers that spit out that same info which gets scanned and sent from one computer to another (or printer at a control position). That entire position disappeared from the tower. Automation. We actually have 2 northern positions in our control tower at Orlando that aren't even manned because technology and automation allows other controllers to do the job. Sadly union still keeps those positions "open" to justify their staffing levels...

 

[BeecherVol]

Most of the work is done with robotics and the human interaction is what some might call minimally skilled, basically becoming like that game infants play where they put the square block in the square hole.

Reducing labor would be good because I don't see how some of these American companies charge the prices they do for their garbage vehicles.

It will eventually get back like it did a few years ago. When you spend more to build a product than your competition that is also inferior to your competition's product, your days are numbered.

 

[Septic]

The specter of Trump running as an independent candidate in the general election continues to be a big potential problem for Republicans. In such a scenario Clinton leads with 38% with Bush at 28% and Trump at 27% basically tying for second place. Trump wins independents with 38% (to 28% for Clinton and 24% for Bush), takes 38% of Republicans, and 14% of Democrats.

Finally another declared independent candidate, Deez Nuts, polls at 9% in North Carolina to go along with his 8% in Minnesota and 7% in Iowa in our recent polling. Trump leads Clinton 40/38 when he's in the mix.

Trump grows lead in NC; GOP leads most match ups - Public Policy Polling

 

[DC_Vol]

The problem is that those same jobs were close to $50 (in today's dollars) back then, and the average worker production and efficiency is much higher now than then (due to specialized training and technology).

So workers are paid less despite more production, while CEOs are making out like bandits in comparison to what they made back then.

I understood your point about the auto worker pay was in support of unions. Perhaps I misunderstood, but my point was they are still a union shop and making much less now. So it must not only be a union phenomenon.

Both sides agree that the middle class is struggling. Is it not apparent that the above might be SOME of the cause?

I agree that the middle class is struggling. I don't think it has a thing to do with unions or CEO pay.

As for the CEO making 18 million? As long as his workers have been seeing their wages increase at the same rate as he has seen over the past few decades, that's totally fine. But they aren't. Average worker wages have stagnated or shrunk and executives have seen their pay skyrocket (as seen above with current pay being between $16-20 an hour)

This is one of the many things that really bothers me about views like yours. You get to the arbiter of what is fair pay? Everyone needs to see their pay increase at the same rate?

When I get a raise do I need to raise the pay of my lawn guy? Raise my tipping percentages?

Why should the individual not look out for him or herself. Find a job and skill set that intersects with where they want to be?

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

The trend in business over the last few decades has been to do more with less. Less pay, more work. I first witnessed it in the USAF where I initially had a very specialized job (6 pieces of equipment) which I was really good at which then got absorbed into a career field with over 70 pieces of equipment that I was good at but never as accomplished as in my previous job. Advances in technology, mainly automation, has made many jobs irrelevant or not worth the money.

Ex..Our old tower had a position where a controller took flight information, wrote it down, put it into a container, then down a tube (like a bank) to another air traffic control site. Well eventually we got computers that spit out that same info which gets scanned and sent from one computer to another (or printer at a control position). That entire position disappeared from the tower. Automation. We actually have 2 northern positions in our control tower at Orlando that aren't even manned because technology and automation allows other controllers to do the job. Sadly union still keeps those positions "open" to justify their staffing levels...

You're right. Automation and innovation has taken more low skilled jobs from Americans than foreigners ever have. Fortunately though, those same robots and technology create other jobs to replace the previous ones. Having sound education and training programs in our country can help combat the problem of low skilled workers losing those jobs and not being able to find newer ones. The problem is, the profits from the productivity quit going to the worker and started to shift more to the executives.

I know dozens of men, particularly my dad and guys his age (50-60) who went to work at our local factory at the ages of 17-18, straight out of high school. They worked there doing their low skilled labor for modest wages from the late 70s to the early 2000s, when they all lost their jobs due to the company replacing many of them with robots or moving some production out of the country. Those same guys who were making $16 or so an hour after 25+ years of service had nowhere to go besides temp services, who paid them $8-9 an hour doing practically the same work in a neighboring county's factory. While the owners of the previous factory they worked in increased their executive pay. That is bonkers imo

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

I understood your point about the auto worker pay was in support of unions. Perhaps I misunderstood, but my point was they are still a union shop and making much less now. So it must not only be a union phenomenon.




I agree that the middle class is struggling. I don't think it has a thing to do with unions or CEO pay.



This is one of the many things that really bothers me about views like yours. You get to the arbiter of what is fair pay? Everyone needs to see their pay increase at the same rate?

When I get a raise do I need to raise the pay of my lawn guy? Raise my tipping percentages?

Why should the individual not look out for him or herself. Find a job and skill set that intersects with where they want to be?

1st point - because workers unions don't have as much leverage as they used to. They have had very little choice, but to accept less pay.

2nd and 3rd point - our view is that the middle class was doing very well, for over 3 decades, after the end of the Great Depression. This time is sometimes referred to as the Great Prosperity. During this time, average worker pay kept up with average national productivity rates. Towards the mid 70s, the average worker started seeing their wages not increase with the average national productivity rate. We became a far more productive nation over this time (currently producing 17.5 trillion dollars in goods and services a year), but the ones who were doing the production were seeing less and less of the economic pie (because more and more has went to the executive level).

 

[BeecherVol]

1st point - because workers unions don't have as much leverage as they used to. They have had very little choice, but to accept less pay.

In regards to Detroit and the auto industry it sounds like the alternative was either tax payer bailouts or find another career.

As a business owner, Im trying to understand how the union can go to the table asking for more after what has happened over the last several years and expect anything more than a chuckle.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

It is frustrating that the biggest response you'll get when bringing up the idea of income inequality over the past 30-40 years, is "You just need to work harder or get an education!" When Americans (who are fully employed) are literally working more yearly hours and are producing more than ever before. Not to mention those same families now often have two incomes, but they are still struggling to maintain an expected standard of living.

Those same people who tell you to "work harder!" are the same ones who make excuses for the boardroom executive who just purchased a private jet. Talk about carrying someone's water.

 

[Biopsyman]

I'd suggest people check out the book "Aftershock" by Robert Reich. It has a film companion called "Inequality For All"

Reich isn't Michael Moore, so don't walk into it thinking he's anything like that hack.

Never trust a midget

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

In regards to Detroit and the auto industry it sounds like the alternative was either tax payer bailouts or find another career.

As a business owner, Im trying to understand how the union can go to the table asking for more after what has happened over the last several years and expect anything more than a chuckle.

Are you talking about auto unions?

Also, small business owners aren't the ones "under attack" here, I'm sure your yearly earnings take a hit from taxes, as well as needed reinvestments. Most independent small business owners aren't the ones paying their employees meager wages, in fact small business employees usually are paid higher wages.

We are mostly coming at the ones who are enjoying an abundance of wealth and income at the expense of their workers. If you're an incredibly wealthy business owner or CEO and you don't pay your employees poorly, then you're awesome.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

This is interesting

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

Never trust a midget

Lol come on, man...

 

[Biopsyman]

The problem is that those same jobs were close to $50 (in today's dollars) back then, and the average worker production and efficiency is much higher now than then (due to specialized training and technology).

So workers are paid less despite more production, while CEOs are making out like bandits in comparison to what they made back then.

Both sides agree that the middle class is struggling. Is it not apparent that the above might be SOME of the cause?

As for the CEO making 18 million? As long as his workers have been seeing their wages increase at the same rate as he has seen over the past few decades, that's totally fine. But they aren't. Average worker wages have stagnated or shrunk and executives have seen their pay skyrocket (as seen above with current pay being between $16-20 an hour)

The average union worker has zero responsibility compared to the CEO. The legacy cost of pensions benefit crushed the auto industry. You should be trilled as the union ownership increased in GM after the bailout.. The bond holders who should have been paid first got a kick in the nuts instead.

 

[BeecherVol]

Are you talking about auto unions?

Also, small business owners aren't the ones "under attack" here, I'm sure your yearly earnings take a hit from taxes, as well as needed reinvestments. Most independent small business owners aren't the ones paying their employees meager wages, in fact small business employees usually are paid higher wages.

We are mostly coming at the ones who are enjoying an abundance of wealth and income at the expense of their workers. If you're an incredibly wealthy business owner or CEO and you don't pay your employees poorly, then you're awesome.

I am.

Im aware most are not after the low level outfits like mine. Im just using my understanding of business (which is basically the same just on a smaller scale) to try and understand how I perceive this situation. Nothing more.

I guess I bucked the trend in some ways. I left my previous employer to work less hours and make more money doing the same thing.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

I am.

Im aware most are not after the low level outfits like mine. Im just using my understanding of business (which is basically the same just on a smaller scale) to try and understand how I perceive this situation. Nothing more.

I guess I bucked the trend in some ways. I left my previous employer to work less hours and make more money doing the same thing.

Haha that's awesome man, I'm glad it worked out like that.

 

[BeecherVol]

Haha that's awesome man, I'm glad it worked out like that.

:hi:

First year wasn't pretty but there wasn't any going back.

Beans and rice for awhile.

 

[FLVOL_79]

You're right. Automation and innovation has taken more low skilled jobs from Americans than foreigners ever have. Fortunately though, those same robots and technology create other jobs to replace the previous ones. Having sound education and training programs in our country can help combat the problem of low skilled workers losing those jobs and not being able to find newer ones. The problem is, the profits from the productivity quit going to the worker and started to shift more to the executives.

I know dozens of men, particularly my dad and guys his age (50-60) who went to work at our local factory at the ages of 17-18, straight out of high school. They worked there doing their low skilled labor for modest wages from the late 70s to the early 2000s, when they all lost their jobs due to the company replacing many of them with robots or moving some production out of the country. Those same guys who were making $16 or so an hour after 25+ years of service had nowhere to go besides temp services, who paid them $8-9 an hour doing practically the same work in a neighboring county's factory. While the owners of the previous factory they worked in increased their executive pay. That is bonkers imo

Not bonkers. That just plain sucks. Back in your dads day (and mine) you could get on with a company and have a pension and some job security. But the opening of global trade and globalization in general has killed that. You know one part of me wants to always be like "Thats life kid suck it up" but then a little bit of empathy rears its ugly head and I can only imagine how sh!!ty it is to get basically screwed over by your employer.

There is no government fix without going all communist China on corporations and set limits on pay. But hey if they do that for CEO's they need to do it for musicians, actors, lawyers, and doctors as well. A lot of people would be up in arms about that. The problem therein lies with the company and what they view as ethical treatment of their employees. Many of these companies can easily afford to increase wages and benefits and I think the cool thing about being in America is there is a freedom given to making such decisions..for the most part.

Now I personally don't do business with places that sh!t on their employees..no fast food, no walmart EVER, etc. I try to always support the local business if at all possible.

 

[FLVOL_79]

Trump grows lead in NC; GOP leads most match ups - Public Policy Polling

That's hilarious. I know who my write in candidate is gonna be!

Deaze' Knutes

 

[Biopsyman]

It is frustrating that the biggest response you'll get when bringing up the idea of income inequality over the past 30-40 years, is "You just need to work harder or get an education!" When Americans (who are fully employed) are literally working more yearly hours and are producing more than ever before. Not to mention those same families now often have two incomes, but they are still struggling to maintain an expected standard of living.

Those same people who tell you to "work harder!" are the same ones who make excuses for the boardroom executive who just purchased a private jet. Talk about carrying someone's water.

The reason a 2 family income struggles so much in the U.S. is due to taxation and to debt..

 

[1972 Grad]

The reason a 2 family income struggles so much in the U.S. is due to taxation and to debt..

Correct and correct.

 

[Mr_Henley]

It is frustrating that the biggest response you'll get when bringing up the idea of income inequality over the past 30-40 years, is "You just need to work harder or get an education!" When Americans (who are fully employed) are literally working more yearly hours and are producing more than ever before. Not to mention those same families now often have two incomes, but they are still struggling to maintain an expected standard of living.

Those same people who tell you to "work harder!" are the same ones who make excuses for the boardroom executive who just purchased a private jet. Talk about carrying someone's water.

If we weren't destroying our currency on a daily basis for decades, the dollars we earn would go much further.

Print more money, then everyone will have more! Raise the minimum wage so we can buy more! Yeah, that will help...

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

Not bonkers. That just plain sucks. Back in your dads day (and mine) you could get on with a company and have a pension and some job security. But the opening of global trade and globalization in general has killed that. You know one part of me wants to always be like "Thats life kid suck it up" but then a little bit of empathy rears its ugly head and I can only imagine how sh!!ty it is to get basically screwed over by your employer.

There is no government fix without going all communist China on corporations and set limits on pay. But hey if they do that for CEO's they need to do it for musicians, actors, lawyers, and doctors as well. A lot of people would be up in arms about that. The problem therein lies with the company and what they view as ethical treatment of their employees. Many of these companies can easily afford to increase wages and benefits and I think the cool thing about being in America is there is a freedom given to making such decisions..for the most part.

Now I personally don't do business with places that sh!t on their employees..no fast food, no walmart EVER, etc. I try to always support the local business if at all possible.

I hear ya, man. Globalization has led to some incredible advancements, but many in my dad and your generation got hosed. I'm glad it has turned out better for you than for the ones I know.

I hate seeing 50-60 year old men and women in our rural and very poor county have the only thing they knew swept out from under them like that. That's a difficult age to transition to a tech job, considering many of them only had GEDs to begin with. Having to take a 50% pay cut (temp services) and try to maintain your standard of living, especially at that age, is awful. Losing their pensions only added insult to injury.

It got worse when my dad was 52, working at a boat factory for $8 an hour and no health benefits, when he was diagnosed with prostate cancer. Of course he couldn't afford the medical bills, but was fortunately granted early access to Medicare and disability insurance. I think after 28 years of back breaking factory work, he deserves some help.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

If we weren't destroying our currency on a daily basis for decades, the dollars we earn would go much further.

Print more money, then everyone will have more! Raise the minimum wage so we can buy more! Yeah, that will help...

Nobody is suggesting we arbitrarily raise wages. They were rising for the middle class for decades, and nobody batted an eye. Now that people are fed up with 30-40 years of stagnant wages, we're called entitled bums.

But you're right, the Federal Reserve has a hand in this problem as well.

 

[Gramps]

I hear ya, man. Globalization has led to some incredible advancements, but many in my dad and your generation got hosed. I'm glad it has turned out better for you than for the ones I know.

I hate seeing 50-60 year old men and women in our rural and very poor county have the only thing they knew swept out from under them like that. That's a difficult age to transition to a tech job, considering many of them only had GEDs to begin with. Having to take a 50% pay cut (temp services) to maintain your standard of living, especially at that age, is awful. Losing their pensions only added insult to injury.

It got worse when my dad was 52, working at a boat factory for $8 an hour and no health benefits, when he was diagnosed with prostate cancer. Of course he couldn't afford the medical bills, but was fortunately granted early access to Medicare and disability insurance. I think after 28 years of back breaking factory work, he deserves some help.

Excellent post.

Way too many good people lost their jobs the last 10 -15 years and had to accept a sub $10 per hour temp job to get by.

 

[FLVOL69]

If we weren't destroying our currency on a daily basis for decades, the dollars we earn would go much further.

Print more money, then everyone will have more! Raise the minimum wage so we can buy more! Yeah, that will help...

Heard a story today about a fed reserve board member who said all the QE the Feds have been doing hasn't helped the economy one iota.. He probably won't be there long. 😜