Bernie Sanders Thread

#1,077
#1,077
volinbham said:
A couple points to add to this:

1) the current amount of direct benefits to the middle class (and lower) is way higher than it was post-war. In effect, the government is subsidizing the growth and standard of living for the middle class today is as high or higher than that of post war america. On a side note, there is more debt today since people buy larger houses, multiple cars, vacations, home furnishings, eat out, etc. etc. Compare the household of the 50s to now and it's night and day how much crap we possess now. That isn't a CEO's fault; it is cultural.

2) I quibble with calling raising CEO pay higher than worker pay as redistribution of wealth; particularly compared to taxation. In the latter, an outside entity (the government) takes wealth from one group under penalty of law and chooses how it will dole it out to others. In the former the company presents an offer to an employee that can be taken or left. The CEO is not taking wealth that the employee had.
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Spot on.. We live in an entitlement society and our politicians of the left are relentless in punishing success. Basically anyone who makes $1 more than your neighbor. They also play the victim card effectively from income, education and race
 
#1,078
#1,078
volinbham said:
A couple points to add to this:

1) the current amount of direct benefits to the middle class (and lower) is way higher than it was post-war. In effect, the government is subsidizing the growth and standard of living for the middle class today is as high or higher than that of post war america. On a side note, there is more debt today since people buy larger houses, multiple cars, vacations, home furnishings, eat out, etc. etc. Compare the household of the 50s to now and it's night and day how much crap we possess now. That isn't a CEO's fault; it is cultural.

2) I quibble with calling raising CEO pay higher than worker pay as redistribution of wealth; particularly compared to taxation. In the latter, an outside entity (the government) takes wealth from one group under penalty of law and chooses how it will dole it out to others. In the former the company presents an offer to an employee that can be taken or left. The CEO is not taking wealth that the employee had.
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As to your point number 1, people have a lot more toys today than they did in the 50's and 60's when I grew up.
There were no expensive cell phones that you just had to have. There were no expensive cable bills, primarily because there was no cable. No navigation systems, no backup cameras, not much air conditioning, no internet bills, no fast food. 1200 square foot houses were the norm, state sales tax was 3%, not 9.75%.

People didn't run to the doctor constantly, and if they did have to go, it was a $5 visit. We weren't bombarded with ads for new drugs to make us think that we could feel young again, so we didn't spend a ton on medicine. The wife generally stayed at home, and the family could often get by with one car. Insurance didn't cost much because people weren't as sue happy.

Heating a house was way cheaper, partially because the electric and gas people weren't paid nearly as well as now or furnished cars to drive home, and the operations center didn't look like it cost $10 million to build. It goes on and on.
 
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#1,079
#1,079
1972 Grad said:
As to your point number 1, people have a lot more toys today than they did in the 50's and 60's when I grew up.
There were no expensive cell phones that you just had to have. There were no expensive cable bills, primarily because there was no cable. No navigation systems, no backup cameras, not much air conditioning, no internet bills, no fast food. 1200 square foot houses were the norm, state sales tax was 3%, not 9.75%.

People didn't run to the doctor constantly, and if they did have to go, it was a $5 visit. We weren't bombarded with ads for new drugs to make us think that we could feel young again, so we didn't spend a ton on medicine. The wife generally stayed at home, and the family could often get by with one car. Insurance didn't cost much because people weren't as sue happy.

Heating a house was way cheaper, partially because the electric and gas people weren't paid nearly as well as now or furnished cars to drive home, and the operations center didn't look like it cost $10 million to build. It goes on and on.
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Advancement in technology and conveniences in our society are a positive. The single biggest destruction to the middle class is taxation and personal debt isCredit cards. Credit card issues and use hae exploded over the past 30-40 years and the crushing compounding interest than people carry is insane and is 1 of the ways than wealth creation is limited.. along with student loans and to your point living in a house that cant afford
 
#1,080
#1,080
1972 Grad said:
As to your point number 1, people have a lot more toys today than they did in the 50's and 60's when I grew up.
There were no expensive cell phones that you just had to have. There were no expensive cable bills, primarily because there was no cable. No navigation systems, no backup cameras, not much air conditioning, no internet bills, no fast food. 1200 square foot houses were the norm, state sales tax was 3%, not 9.75%.

People didn't run to the doctor constantly, and if they did have to go, it was a $5 visit. We weren't bombarded with ads for new drugs to make us think that we could feel young again, so we didn't spend a ton on medicine. The wife generally stayed at home, and the family could often get by with one car. Insurance didn't cost much because people weren't as sue happy.

Heating a house was way cheaper, partially because the electric and gas people weren't paid nearly as well as now or furnished cars to drive home, and the operations center didn't look like it cost $10 million to build. It goes on and on.
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It is a shame most families cannot afford for the wife stay home which is a full time job.

That is a something children are missing today. I think a loving mother that can stay home with her children makes a stronger family.

The younger adults that grew up with both parents working will not fully understand this post.
 
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#1,081
#1,081
Gramps said:
It is a shame most families cannot afford for the wife stay home which is a full time job.

That is a something children are missing today. I think a loving mother that can stay home with her children makes a stronger family.

The younger adults that grew up with both parents working will not fully understand this post.
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And that is directly related to high taxation... All in in is about 50% of household gross
 
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#1,085
#1,085
Biopsyman said:
Advancement in technology and conveniences in our society are a positive. The single biggest destruction to the middle class is taxation and personal debt isCredit cards. Credit card issues and use hae exploded over the past 30-40 years and the crushing compounding interest than people carry is insane and is 1 of the ways than wealth creation is limited.. along with student loans and to your point living in a house that cant afford
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I am sure that you are correct about credit cards, but I have never put anything on a credit card that I could not afford to pay off very quickly. If I couldn't afford it, I didn't buy it.
 
#1,086
#1,086
Been a whole lotta "oh my back 60 years ago this and that was great". Yeah..lets revert all of our policies to EXACTLY what they were in 1955. It will be like Shangri La right?!

And I mean ALL policies. We can't half ass this!
 
#1,087
#1,087
1972 Grad said:
I am sure that you are correct about credit cards, but I have never put anything on a credit card that I could not afford to pay off very quickly. If I couldn't afford it, I didn't buy it.
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The economy functions well when people don't save and people/business use lines of credit extensively. Saving and frugal spending is the last thing Mr.Economy wants you to do.
 
#1,088
#1,088
FLVOL_79 said:
The economy functions well when people don't save and people/business use lines of credit extensively. Saving and frugal spending is the last thing Mr.Economy wants you to do.
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I am aware of all that. I have a degree in Econ from U.T.
I worry about my own survival first.
 
#1,090
#1,090
Gramps said:
The tax rates are much lower now.
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Maybe on the top 5% of earners, but Tennessee state sales tax was 3% in 1960. It has more than tripled since. The State of Tennessee has also done away with the single article tax base which capped the tax on automobiles.

The luxury tax went away which helped some people. Property taxes are up percentage wise also.
 
#1,092
#1,092
1972 Grad said:
Maybe on the top 5% of earners, but Tennessee state sales tax was 3% in 1960. It has more than tripled since. The State of Tennessee has also done away with the single article tax base which capped the tax on automobiles.

The luxury tax went away which helped some people. Property taxes are up percentage wise also.
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What would that 3% sales tax be in 2015 dollars?
 
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#1,093
#1,093
G0 BIG 0RANGE said:
1. Yes, people have health insurance and sometimes dental and vision through their employers, but that's assuming every employer offers every employee these options. Employees, across the board, are making less. This includes lower middle class workers in positions that don't often offer fringe benefits. And that is a point I made earlier, middle class Americans are told to tighten their belts and live within their means and not enjoy the better things in life, only the top are allowed to do that. While it is true, some people are living far beyond what they should, attempting to keep up with the Jones' a bit too much. But I'm not talking about those families who can afford to live in $200,000 homes and eat out every meal, because by and large they're making enough to sustain that standard of living.
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I'm not talking employee benefits though they too have increased. I'm talking government benefits - Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, SNAP, Pell Grants, Earned Income Tax Credit, etc. - all these serve to increase the income of the middle and lower class and were largely not available to that family of the post-war era.

Guess where the payment comes from for those benefits?

So wage growth hasn't kept up but I bet overall financial support to families has.
 
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#1,094
#1,094
BeecherVol said:
UAW

From what I read GM has a 2 tiered scale.

Low tier 19+$
High tier 28+$

From the sounds of it GM and Ford both trying to create an even lower tier to reduce labor cost.
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My dad is retired UAW from Ford Glass. Several years ago I was reading one of his monthly union magazines and there was an article that outlined Ford's financial position versus Toyota. At that time Ford was $1500 in the hole per vehicle produced before production even began due to labor and benefits costs.
 
#1,095
#1,095
G0 BIG 0RANGE said:
People forget that Enron happened and seem to think it was an isolated event. Every single poor or middle class person in this country is where they are because of the choices they made and every CEO and executive is where they are because they worked hard. Of course no cronyism has ever occurred.
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C'mon man - just because a person like me advocates free market solutions and believes capitalism is the best system doesn't mean I fit the stereotype above.

I recognize the warts. People do bad things but that occurs in any political system. I'll argue all day long that free market capitalism has done more to lift people's standards of living than any other system and offers the most egalitarian form of opportunity for someone to improve their lot in life.

That doesn't mean it is cronyism free. Though government via regulation and the tax code represents the most fruitful path to cronyism.
 
#1,097
#1,097
Gramps said:
What would that 3% sales tax be in 2015 dollars?
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I don't understand your question, but the state and local governments got by on 3% of sales then. Government has grown to the point that they need almost 10% now. Inflation should take care of the revenue problem.
 
#1,098
#1,098
hog88 said:
But with much less deductions.
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For example - all interest on debt used to be deductible now it's just mortgage.

Post-war the payroll tax was 2% increasing to 4% by the mid 50s. Now it is 12.4% (Note: the number is split between the employee and employer).

Payroll tax is non-progressive.
 
#1,099
#1,099
Carl Pickens said:
My dad is retired UAW from Ford Glass. Several years ago I was reading one of his monthly union magazines and there was an article that outlined Ford's financial position versus Toyota. At that time Ford was $1500 in the hole per vehicle produced before production even began due to labor and benefits costs.
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The # I've seen frequently is between 1 and 1.5k primarily from health care costs.
 
#1,100
#1,100
1972 Grad said:
I don't understand your question, but the state and local governments got by on 3% of sales then. Government has grown to the point that they need almost 10% now. Inflation should take care of the revenue problem.
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Sorry, gray moment.. don't understand it myself.
 
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