Bernie Sanders Thread

[82_VOL_83]

I don't think anyone is arguing that fast food workers should be paid extravagant wages that afford them the opportunity to buy yachts.

The argument is that there are fewer and fewer low skilled labor jobs available and often the only ones that are available are fast food and temp jobs. Particularly in cities and rural areas. So low skilled workers that depended on their factory jobs for the past few decades are having to take fast food and temp jobs that pay half of what they were making before outsourcing, automation, globalization, etc. picked up.

This wouldn't have been as big of an issue had we invested more in training and/or post secondary school for these workers.

So now we have former low skilled factory workers replacing teens in low skilled fast food positions, and those who run these businesses encouraging their employees to get government assistance to supplement their low wages

McDonald's McResources Hotline Tells Nancy Salgado To Get On Food Stamps - Business Insider

This puts more of a burden on tax payers, while the owners, executives, CEOs are making more than ever.

$10-15 an hour for operating a piece of factory machinery wasn't considered outlandish when my dad was doing it under union support, but we turn our noses at low skilled workers now and scoff at the idea of them unionizing.

If the minimum wage would have at least kept up with inflation, this wouldn't be as big of an issue.

I'd gladly pay an extra $0.17-0.30 every time I visited McDonald's, if it meant their workers were less dependent on government subsidies and more capable of providing for themselves.

What paying fast food workers a living wage would do to the price of a Big Mac - The Washington Post

So fast food restaurant owners should feel "empathy" for these workers and pay them what they "deserve" instead of what the job is worth? Why should there even be a minimum wage? Why not let owners pay what they want? Or, if you insist on a minimum wage, why not leave it where it is?

Went to Arby's today....the largest Roast Beef sandwich is smaller than what a medium used to be. The combo comes with 1 potato cake and a "small drink" that is half the size of Canada. It is over $8. I literally eat fast food once a week, used to be way more often. I am close to stopping it altogether. I don't think it's worth what they charge now much less another $0.50.

I personally empathize with your workers plight, I just don't care. My taxes aren't going to go down any when you raise the minimum wage, in fact it will have no effect on my taxes at all. I will just be paying the same ole same ole to Uncle Sam and more at the pump so to speak. The argument to get these workers off the government teat falls on deaf ears.

 

[82_VOL_83]

I've never heard a French fry worker make such demands. Lets not get ridiculous.

Then you need to have more conversations with people instead of the same ole crowd. I talk to anyone and everyone, it's amazing what someone will say after a couple of beers.

 

[Biopsyman]

Considering manufacturing jobs for low skilled workers aren't as readily available anymore, some people don't have many other options these days.

But you're right, Biopsyman, the lazy bums need to be happy with what they got. If they want to get big money, they need to start their own damn McDonald's franchise, what with all this upward mobility we have in the U.S. these days. I just hope those damn Mexicans don't take what little we have left...

You consider making an hamburger a manufacturing job?

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

You consider making an hamburger a manufacturing job?

No, I never said that. I said that low skilled manufacturing jobs aren't around like they used to be and many of those workers are now having to rely on fast food jobs. However, both manufacturing and fast food jobs are considered low skill and fast food could be considered the 21st century service equivalent of a factory job. But you selectively read what anyone who opposes you says.

 

[Biopsyman]

No, I never said that. I said that low skilled manufacturing jobs aren't around like they used to be and many of those workers are now having to rely on fast food jobs. However, both manufacturing and fast food jobs are considered low skill and fast food could be considered the 21st century service equivalent of a factory job. But you selectively read what anyone who opposes you says.

You keep referring to "low skill"..Why would any company pay a high wage that was filled by low skill workers. Workers that are low skilled need to improve their skills to be more attractive in the job market or move to a location where their current skills are in demand where higher wages would be earned as competition for talent drives wages up. Market forces determine wages

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

You keep referring to "low skill"..Why would any company pay a high wage that was filled by low skill workers. Workers that are low skilled need to improve their skills to be more attractive in the job market or move to a location where their current skills are in demand where higher wages would be earned as competition for talent drives wages up. Market forces determine wages

We've had low skilled labor forever, and always will. Manufacturing jobs were low skilled and we paid them better. Now many manufacturing jobs are smothered by temp services that offer "market" wages of $8 or 9.00 for comparable work of the factories pre-recession.

I agree that people should learn skills and attempt to move up, but you can't start there and many people in that situation are in their 50s with few places to turn for training and education.

And it is really easy to up and move to a location where your low skills are in demand. Because that isn't expensive at all for someone in that position.

 

[Biopsyman]

We've had low skilled labor forever, and always will. Manufacturing jobs were low skilled and we paid them better. Now many manufacturing jobs are smothered by temp services that offer "market" wages of $8 or 9.00 for comparable work of the factories pre-recession.

I agree that people should learn skills and attempt to move up, but you can't start there and many people in that situation are in their 50s with few places to turn for training and education.

And it is really easy to up and move to a location where your low skills are in demand. Because that isn't expensive at all for someone in that position.

People in their 50's low skilled or very skilled are usually not attractive to many companies due to your short term exposure with that company.. CODE FOR AGE.. Any recruiter will tell you that you need to be be where you want to be when you turn 50 as you are suddenly "old" and the employer will not invest in you and your likely progression in a company would be limited. Its just the facts...It stings everyone eventually

 

[82_VOL_83]

Please do not confuse manufacturing jobs and the assembly line making widgets. The reason your "low skilled" workers can't get manufacturing jobs is because THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED! The manufacturing world of today requires more than an 8th grade education or a HS diploma with a 2.0 GPA. Instead of welfare and foodstamps for this level of worker, the Fed should put them to work. Pick up trash on the side of the road for Pete's sake or some other needed "chore" in exchange for welfare. Just because they "need it" does not mean it should be paid. I need $1mil in tax free cash but I don't freaking see that coming from my employer or the government.

 

[82_VOL_83]

People in their 50's low skilled or very skilled are usually not attractive to many companies due to your short term exposure with that company.. CODE FOR AGE.. Any recruiter will tell you that you need to be be where you want to be when you turn 50 as you are suddenly "old" and the employer will not invest in you and your likely progression in a company would be limited. Its just the facts...It stings everyone eventually

Fortunately, my company is not that way.

 

[Biopsyman]

Please do not confuse manufacturing jobs and the assembly line making widgets. The reason your "low skilled" workers can't get manufacturing jobs is because THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED! The manufacturing world of today requires more than an 8th grade education or a HS diploma with a 2.0 GPA. Instead of welfare and foodstamps for this level of worker, the Fed should put them to work. Pick up trash on the side of the road for Pete's sake or some other needed "chore" in exchange for welfare. Just because they "need it" does not mean it should be paid. I need $1mil in tax free cash but I don't freaking see that coming from my employer or the government.

Brutal by true.. The same workers want to be paid the same rate for entry level jobs as prior factory jobs.. They do not remotely match.....Simply not going to happen.

 

[Biopsyman]

Fortunately, my company is not that way.

My point is that someone 40 would have a higher projectability to a company vs someone 50.. With all things being equal in skill level. Most company will be more likely to invest and develop the younger employee

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

Please do not confuse manufacturing jobs and the assembly line making widgets. The reason your "low skilled" workers can't get manufacturing jobs is because THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED! The manufacturing world of today requires more than an 8th grade education or a HS diploma with a 2.0 GPA. Instead of welfare and foodstamps for this level of worker, the Fed should put them to work. Pick up trash on the side of the road for Pete's sake or some other needed "chore" in exchange for welfare. Just because they "need it" does not mean it should be paid. I need $1mil in tax free cash but I don't freaking see that coming from my employer or the government.

Of the few manufacturing jobs around my area, they require only a HS diploma or a GED. The problem is that they most only hire through temp services, which is a tricky way around paying full price for employees. What high tech factories are you talking about that want more than a HS diploma?

And I agree, nobody should be put on government services if they can work. It is just that so many jobs for those level of workers don't pay enough for them to get off of government services. I know people who work in factory settings who have been encouraged to seek government subsidies (food stamps and WIC, mostly) by their employer because they're getting paid 1/2-3/4 of what they would be paid if the temp service wasn't in the way.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

Even the typically pro "free market" Forbes says this is an issue. Just because some of you guys haven't faced these problems doesn't mean everyone who has is there because they have no skills or education.

I'm not in their position either, I have a bachelor's and a master's and hold a comfortable full-time job, but I still empathize with them.

Careers Are Dead. Welcome To Your Low-Wage, Temp Work Future

 

[BeecherVol]

I agree that people should learn skills and attempt to move up, but you can't start there and many people in that situation are in their 50s with few places to turn for training and education.

And it is really easy to up and move to a location where your low skills are in demand. Because that isn't expensive at all for someone in that position.

This is where you lose some traction with me.

If you are in your 50s and you have not put yourself in a better position than low skill (McDs in this case) you have failed yourself first and foremost. And I'm talking about long term not a filler job.

You got yourself an edcuation and give yourself options. Which I consider very prudent. I kinda went the other direction and learned several different trades and finally settled on one I enjoyed. Years later, I was able to work for myself.

Had either of us made it to our 50s without doing one or the other it would be on us. You obviously put some thought into where you wanted to be and made that happen, no different than I. Those that chose not to get stuck with something less desirable, or McDs.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

This is where you lose some traction with me.

If you are in your 50s and you have not put yourself in a better position than low skill (McDs in this case) you have failed yourself first and foremost. And I'm talking about long term not a filler job.

You got yourself an edcuation and give yourself options. Which I consider very prudent. I kinda went the other direction and learned several different trades and finally settled on one I enjoyed. Years later, I was able to work for myself.

Had either of us made it to our 50s without doing one or the other it would be on us. You obviously put some thought into where you wanted to be and made that happen, no different than I. Those that chose not to get stuck with something less desirable, or McDs.

I agree with that, but what about those who worked their factory jobs from the late 70s to 2008 when the bottom fell out of the economy. They weren't quite at retirement age, lost their pensions, and were stuck at or around age 50 with no more than the skills they learned in the factory and their high school diploma from 1979 (when very few people, let alone poor rural folks, went to college or trade school). When they went to find work, they were told they were too old and too unskilled. What work they could find paid half of what they'd worked 25+ years to obtain (and didn't include overtime, benefits, or even consistent full-time schedules). Many of them found that they could draw more on unemployment than they cpuld driving 60 miles (round trip) a day to the nearest factory that would have them at their age and skill level.

I can vouch for at least a hundred factory workers that this happened to in my county and surrounding rural counties. These are the people I empathize with, not so much those who feel entitled and choose to not learn a trade or to obtain an education (although it is ridiculously expensive to get one now).

Does that make more sense? I'm not defending laziness, I'm defending those who busted their asses, only to have the rug pulled out from under them in the later parts of their career, sticking them in limbo. Surely we all know someone who experienced this at the start of the recent recession?

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

And I'm not in my 50s, sorry if that's how it sounded. I'm in my 20s and was in college during the beginning of the recession and it was hard finding a job during and immediately after the start (2008-ish).

My dad was one of those guys, unfortunately. Despite that, he did everything he could to help get me through college (the first in our family), including selling his old Camaro. If it hadn't been for Pell Grants and subsidized student loans, I might have been in his position.

It's different when it hits home I guess.

 

[BeecherVol]

I understand your point and see the difference as you have described and agree to an extent even with the separation.
I have to drive 10 hours round trip to do a lot of my work. It sucks, but it opens up work that I need to survive when things slow down locally. Sometimes you are forced to do certain things you don't want to do. My previous employer would have layed off or reduced the size of his company before he did that. I didn't want to wait around and give him the chance. It come with some bad but it put me in a position with options. Im somewhere between " tough luck" and "feeling sorry" for those that dont build in opportunities as they progress.
I was always taught that you were asking for Murphy when you didn't have a plan B.

 

[BeecherVol]

Im in my mid 30s and my dad had that happen to him in a similar situation a few years ago. It took him a lot of patience and hard work but he is actually in a better position now than he was with 33 years of service at his previous place.

 

[BeecherVol]

And I'm not in my 50s, sorry if that's how it sounded. I'm in my 20s and was in college during the beginning of the recession and it was hard finding a job during and immediately after the start (2008-ish).

My dad was one of those guys, unfortunately. Despite that, he did everything he could to help get me through college (the first in our family), including selling his old Camaro. If it hadn't been for Pell Grants and subsidized student loans, I might have been in his position.

It's different when it hits home I guess.

Your dad sounds like a fine man.

I'm lucky in that regard myself.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

I understand your point and see the difference as you have described and agree to an extent even with the separation.
I have to drive 10 hours round trip to do a lot of my work. It sucks, but it opens up work that I need to survive when things slow down locally. Sometimes you are forced to do certain things you don't want to do. My previous employer would have layed off or reduced the size of his company before he did that. I didn't want to wait around and give him the chance. It come with some bad but it put me in a position with options. Im somewhere between " tough luck" and "feeling sorry" for those that dont build in opportunities as they progress.
I was always taught that you were asking for Murphy when you didn't have a plan B.

I hear you, man. You got to do what you got to do. But in my dad's situation, like I've mentioned before, he was diagnosed with prostate cancer shortly after losing his job. He had it removed, thankfully, and it hasn't resurfaced, but he was left with a leaky bladder (has to wear adult diapers) and couldn't possibly pay for the medical bills. Now he's been deemed disabled and has fortunately qualified for early Medicare.

That's the type of "socialism" we have in our country that I support.

Funny that you mention Murphy's Law, considering our name is Murphy

 

[1972 Grad]

And I'm not in my 50s, sorry if that's how it sounded. I'm in my 20s and was in college during the beginning of the recession and it was hard finding a job during and immediately after the start (2008-ish).

My dad was one of those guys, unfortunately. Despite that, he did everything he could to help get me through college (the first in our family), including selling his old Camaro. If it hadn't been for Pell Grants and subsidized student loans, I might have been in his position.

It's different when it hits home I guess.

You should buy him a Camaro when you are able.

 

[BeecherVol]

I hear you, man. You got to do what you got to do. But in my dad's situation, like I've mentioned before, he was diagnosed with prostate cancer shortly after losing his job. He had it removed, thankfully, and it hasn't resurfaced, but he was left with a leaky bladder (has to wear adult diapers) and couldn't possibly pay for the medical bills. Now he's been deemed disabled and has fortunately qualified for early Medicare.

That's the type of "socialism" we have in our country that I support.

Funny that you mention Murphy's Law, considering our name is Murphy

Amen.
Tell him there is an old country boy in middle Tn pulling for him.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

You should buy him a Camaro when you are able.

I've been looking on Craigslist, trust me haha. If anyone sees a 1972 Z28, message me.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

Amen.
Tell him there is an old country boy in middle Tn pulling for him.

I appreciate it, man.

 

[1972 Grad]

I've been looking on Craigslist, trust me haha. If anyone sees a 1972 Z28, message me.

Last year of the LT-1. Won't be cheap. Split front bumpers(RS) or not?