Beverly Hills residents arming themselves with guns in wake of violence

#52
#52
Grand Vol said:
It's not actually...

Believe it or not, an AR15 is far better suited to home defense than a shotgun.
Click to expand...
Depends on the scenario (in my opinion). Up close not much is going to compare to a stomach full of double aught buckshot, that is if their stomach exists anymore after being hit. Then again an AR in the 300 win magnum caliber is definitely going to ruin someones day (and your wallet).
 
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#55
#55
VolFaninFla said:
Beverly Hills residents arming themselves after murder, violence
“I’ve always been anti-gun,” said Debbie Mizrahie of Beverly Hills. “But I am right now in the process of getting myself shooting lessons because I now understand that there may be a need for me to know how to defend myself and my family. We’re living in fear.”
She was likely anti gun when the little people felt unsafe and she didn’t want them to have guns to defend themselves. But now, that the real world has visited her paradise, she has changed her mind.
Click to expand...

The leftist scum in this country deserve to feel the pain and misery they’ve created.
 
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#56
#56
Rasputin_Vol said:
Make your case. I would be curious to know why you would prefer AR over shotgun. I've kind of been on the fence with that myself.
Click to expand...

Not really "my" case to be made, but there are a lot of advantages of an AR over a shotty for home defense applications...

1. Accuracy. In almost each and every case, an AR is way more accurate than a shotgun due to the design and single shot. Almost every modern AR one comes in contact these days with will come with a flattop and red dot or holo sights are reasonable cheap and ready available. With a shotgun, especially a short barrel design as AMD pointed out, can be "accurate" up close but generally speaking, you still deal with spread issues with most loads people would buy and increasing your chances of missing a target even unintentionally. Bring me to my next point...

2. Follow up. Facing facts here, an AR is extremely controllable even in an SBR form, though most people will have a 16 inch barreled carbine. There is a distinct lack of recoil making follow up shots easy again, with any sighting system. If (or when) you are faced with multiple intruders, quick follow up shots are imperative and an AR is clearly superior to a shotgun in the recoil management/quick follow up. You can be quick with a shotgun, but that brings me to my next point:

3. Training. Training on a scattergun takes a lot of time, ammo and constant refresher to maintain that edge you need to be effective. This is obviously where I part company with Brandon and the effectiveness of a shotgun for home defense. Yeah, there is a "psychological edge" with a pump action, but not saying there isn't a psychological edge with some crazed man or woman in their sleeping clothes slicing the pie with an AR (especially one with a weapon mounted light). Regardless, you can "train" a person on how to employ an AR in a half hour or less and with maybe a hundred rounds or so. At least enough to defend themselves at home. Okay, sure, it takes a lot more time and effort for someone to become competent in "combat shooting" but if something goes bump in the night, "good enough" is "good enough" especially if given the choice between a shotgun someone fools around with once a year or grabbing the AR they know isn't going to hammer them with recoil. Any child (or adults that act like children) can easily handle an AR without in depth training. There still needs to be training, but the amount to overcome the recoil of a shotgun is far more than the amount to effectively put rounds on target with an AR.

4. Lethality. This is subjective as a close range load of shotgun buck or a slug/sabot will be quite lethal, but the AR does have an edge due to the fact even "cheap" ammo tends to fragment. And more often than not, homeowners will not always buy effective shotgun loads like the Federal Flight Control or Winchester PDX. Honestly though, most .223 or 5.56mm ammo can be bought for around the same price and (outside of the steel jacketed Russian stuff and light varmint loads) will be far more effective than the 7.5 birdshot loads homeowners would buy. Hitting with one .223 center mass will be a deal breaker especially with the hydrostatic shock an AR can deliver. There is no "dead right there" HD load in either platform. You can take the fight out of a person with either system, but doing it quicker with an AR with follow up shots.

5. Capacity. You're going to get 5-8 rounds out of a shotgun before you start having to reload. You get up to 30 or more out of an AR. The math here is simple. Reloading an AR takes mere seconds even under a stressful situation. Reloading a shotgun without training? Yeah, even with the Tacticool side scabbard with reloads or 30 round slight belts, this one sells itself.

6. Range. Yes, for "home defense" you are looking at limited ranges. But a lot of houses have 45-60 feet of distance in some places. Anything past 30 feet and that shotgun load starts to come apart (except when using the aforementioned loads like the Federal and whatnot). That AR bullet will still be true at that distance. While this is a minor point, it's still major if you are shooting past rooms with children or other loved ones.

7. Penetration. Or overpenetration in this case. An AR load in .223 caliber tends to go in and stop which is why a lot of tac teams moved away from platforms like the MP5 and back to an AR platform after the great SMG craze of the 90s. A pistol round actually can penetrate more than a rifle load. Shotgun loads can (and will) continue going regardless of what they hit along the way. Even a couple of layers of sheetrock can stop or significantly slow down an AR round since it will fragment after hitting something.

8. Price. Of course, shotguns are typically less expensive than an AR... for a cheap model, sure. But for a "good" shotgun to bet your life with (Winchester/FN, Mossberg or Remington are the only brands I recommend) it ends up being far closer in price. You can buy a "good" AR (S&W, Ruger, PSA, etc) for around $650-700 and drop a cheap RDS like a Primary Arms on it for another hundred bucks or so. A "good" shotgun like a Mossberg 500 or 590? $600-650 with the added price of the RDS. This one, again, sells itself as the AR is far more customizable at the end.

9. Adaptability. As stated, any AR is like an adult Barbie since you can customize it with thousands of after market parts and pieces. Most things can be done at home with a many of the AR items (I don't recommend grip changes without the proper tools, training and patience to find that detent spring and detent after it flies out). Yes, shotguns have become a lot more customizable in recent years, but you can't swing a cat in any gun shop in America without hitting some piece of aftermarket AR kit.

The advantages of an AR platform over a shotgun for home defense are honestly very clear. It's a system that lends itself to close quarters all the way out to 300 meters or further with the right ammo/system. I used to be in the "use a shotgun because of the psychological advantages!" crowd. But after I started looking at the two side by side, the AR came off clearly superior to a shotgun for the intended use. My "home defense" setup is my BCM 16 inch midlength with a EOTech 553 and a Surefire Scout rail mounted light with 30 rounds of Winchester RA556B ammo and spare mags loaded with the same. It also serves as my SHTF rifle, so, that works both ways.
 
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#58
#58
Grand Vol said:
Sorry for the novel @Rasputin_Vol but it's a complicated subject with a lot of info.

@FLVOL_79 see above post. Yeah, a gut full of buck will be bad, but honestly check out the gel tests on my .223/5.56 loads. You might be surprised.
Click to expand...
I'm going to do that. I have a 5.56 AR-15 and I see that ammo always in stock..except for today at Academy Sports. One would have though the end of the world was happening there. Ammo, guns, cleaned out.

I have a 30-06 hunting rifle but I am pondering a semi-auto AR10 300 win mag, for hunting, if I can find one. I'd like one with an adjustable cheek weld and the capability of carrying more than 4-5 rounds.
 
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#59
#59
FLVOL_79 said:
I'm going to do that. I have a 5.56 AR-15 and I see that ammo always in stock..except for today at Academy Sports. One would have though the end of the world was happening there. Ammo, guns, cleaned out.

I have a 30-06 hunting rifle but I am pondering a semi-auto AR10 300 win mag, for hunting, if I can find one. I'd like one with an adjustable cheek weld and the capability of carrying more than 4-5 rounds.
Click to expand...

Bruh, you don't need more than a .308 for those dog sized deer they have down in Florida lol

I kid, I kid...

As far as an -10 platform, I would say skip the belted magnum and go for the standard .308. Most game in the Lower 48 can be taken without much trouble. If you "need" a larger or more powerful caliber, I'd suggest a bolt action (especially for a Magnum like the .300) since it has been designed for the power and won't use proprietary parts that can (and will) disappear if you end up breaking it since the niche manufacturers don't stay in business that long.

My suggestion for a tactical/hunting -10 setup would be the Palmetto State Gen 3 platform:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...el-15-lightweight-m-lok-str-ssa-e-rifle2.html

Or an Aero combo of these:

M5 18

M5 Complete Lower Receiver w/ MOE® Grip & UBR® Gen2 Stock

Won't break the bank and both have good return policies (PSA does take some time to respond) and you can put a good piece of glass on top.
 
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#60
#60
Grand Vol said:
Not really "my" case to be made, but there are a lot of advantages of an AR over a shotty for home defense applications...

1. Accuracy. In almost each and every case, an AR is way more accurate than a shotgun due to the design and single shot. Almost every modern AR one comes in contact these days with will come with a flattop and red dot or holo sights are reasonable cheap and ready available. With a shotgun, especially a short barrel design as AMD pointed out, can be "accurate" up close but generally speaking, you still deal with spread issues with most loads people would buy and increasing your chances of missing a target even unintentionally. Bring me to my next point...

2. Follow up. Facing facts here, an AR is extremely controllable even in an SBR form, though most people will have a 16 inch barreled carbine. There is a distinct lack of recoil making follow up shots easy again, with any sighting system. If (or when) you are faced with multiple intruders, quick follow up shots are imperative and an AR is clearly superior to a shotgun in the recoil management/quick follow up. You can be quick with a shotgun, but that brings me to my next point:

3. Training. Training on a scattergun takes a lot of time, ammo and constant refresher to maintain that edge you need to be effective. This is obviously where I part company with Brandon and the effectiveness of a shotgun for home defense. Yeah, there is a "psychological edge" with a pump action, but not saying there isn't a psychological edge with some crazed man or woman in their sleeping clothes slicing the pie with an AR (especially one with a weapon mounted light). Regardless, you can "train" a person on how to employ an AR in a half hour or less and with maybe a hundred rounds or so. At least enough to defend themselves at home. Okay, sure, it takes a lot more time and effort for someone to become competent in "combat shooting" but if something goes bump in the night, "good enough" is "good enough" especially if given the choice between a shotgun someone fools around with once a year or grabbing the AR they know isn't going to hammer them with recoil. Any child (or adults that act like children) can easily handle an AR without in depth training. There still needs to be training, but the amount to overcome the recoil of a shotgun is far more than the amount to effectively put rounds on target with an AR.

4. Lethality. This is subjective as a close range load of shotgun buck or a slug/sabot will be quite lethal, but the AR does have an edge due to the fact even "cheap" ammo tends to fragment. And more often than not, homeowners will not always buy effective shotgun loads like the Federal Flight Control or Winchester PDX. Honestly though, most .223 or 5.56mm ammo can be bought for around the same price and (outside of the steel jacketed Russian stuff and light varmint loads) will be far more effective than the 7.5 birdshot loads homeowners would buy. Hitting with one .223 center mass will be a deal breaker especially with the hydrostatic shock an AR can deliver. There is no "dead right there" HD load in either platform. You can take the fight out of a person with either system, but doing it quicker with an AR with follow up shots.

5. Capacity. You're going to get 5-8 rounds out of a shotgun before you start having to reload. You get up to 30 or more out of an AR. The math here is simple. Reloading an AR takes mere seconds even under a stressful situation. Reloading a shotgun without training? Yeah, even with the Tacticool side scabbard with reloads or 30 round slight belts, this one sells itself.

6. Range. Yes, for "home defense" you are looking at limited ranges. But a lot of houses have 45-60 feet of distance in some places. Anything past 30 feet and that shotgun load starts to come apart (except when using the aforementioned loads like the Federal and whatnot). That AR bullet will still be true at that distance. While this is a minor point, it's still major if you are shooting past rooms with children or other loved ones.

7. Penetration. Or overpenetration in this case. An AR load in .223 caliber tends to go in and stop which is why a lot of tac teams moved away from platforms like the MP5 and back to an AR platform after the great SMG craze of the 90s. A pistol round actually can penetrate more than a rifle load. Shotgun loads can (and will) continue going regardless of what they hit along the way. Even a couple of layers of sheetrock can stop or significantly slow down an AR round since it will fragment after hitting something.

8. Price. Of course, shotguns are typically less expensive than an AR... for a cheap model, sure. But for a "good" shotgun to bet your life with (Winchester/FN, Mossberg or Remington are the only brands I recommend) it ends up being far closer in price. You can buy a "good" AR (S&W, Ruger, PSA, etc) for around $650-700 and drop a cheap RDS like a Primary Arms on it for another hundred bucks or so. A "good" shotgun like a Mossberg 500 or 590? $600-650 with the added price of the RDS. This one, again, sells itself as the AR is far more customizable at the end.

9. Adaptability. As stated, any AR is like an adult Barbie since you can customize it with thousands of after market parts and pieces. Most things can be done at home with a many of the AR items (I don't recommend grip changes without the proper tools, training and patience to find that detent spring and detent after it flies out). Yes, shotguns have become a lot more customizable in recent years, but you can't swing a cat in any gun shop in America without hitting some piece of aftermarket AR kit.

The advantages of an AR platform over a shotgun for home defense are honestly very clear. It's a system that lends itself to close quarters all the way out to 300 meters or further with the right ammo/system. I used to be in the "use a shotgun because of the psychological advantages!" crowd. But after I started looking at the two side by side, the AR came off clearly superior to a shotgun for the intended use. My "home defense" setup is my BCM 16 inch midlength with a EOTech 553 and a Surefire Scout rail mounted light with 30 rounds of Winchester RA556B ammo and spare mags loaded with the same. It also serves as my SHTF rifle, so, that works both ways.
Click to expand...
Do you write for a magazine?
 
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#63
#63
Grand Vol said:
Sorry for the novel @Rasputin_Vol but it's a complicated subject with a lot of info.

@FLVOL_79 see above post. Yeah, a gut full of buck will be bad, but honestly check out the gel tests on my .223/5.56 loads. You might be surprised.
Click to expand...
The only problem I see is with the first point regarding accuracy. I think the average homeowner is not going to have the time and/or have the ability to be shooting accurately with sights or a scope when the adrenaline is flowing at 3:00 am and trouble comes calling. It will likely be spray and pray. But that's just me thinking about it. Outside of that, I can see the rest of your points.
 
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#64
#64
Grand Vol said:
Bruh, you don't need more than a .308 for those dog sized deer they have down in Florida lol

I kid, I kid...

As far as an -10 platform, I would say skip the belted magnum and go for the standard .308. Most game in the Lower 48 can be taken without much trouble. If you "need" a larger or more powerful caliber, I'd suggest a bolt action (especially for a Magnum like the .300) since it has been designed for the power and won't use proprietary parts that can (and will) disappear if you end up breaking it since the niche manufacturers don't stay in business that long.

My suggestion for a tactical/hunting -10 setup would be the Palmetto State Gen 3 platform:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...el-15-lightweight-m-lok-str-ssa-e-rifle2.html

Or an Aero combo of these:

M5 18

M5 Complete Lower Receiver w/ MOE® Grip & UBR® Gen2 Stock

Won't break the bank and both have good return policies (PSA does take some time to respond) and you can put a good piece of glass on top.
Click to expand...
Lol Florida deer..a .22 is all you need for them. I live in Georgia for now. Deer and Hogs are what Ive been going after. Family member has some land in Colorado where I can hunt elk/moose so looking to get into that next year, maybe up to Wyoming for some Buffalo as well in a few years.

I actually have a Palmetto State AR15 and I like it a lot.
 
#65
#65
FLVOL_79 said:
Lol Florida deer..a .22 is all you need for them. I live in Georgia for now. Deer and Hogs are what Ive been going after. Family member has some land in Colorado where I can hunt elk/moose so looking to get into that next year, maybe up to Wyoming for some Buffalo as well in a few years.
Click to expand...

Don't you have to worry about that "wasting" disease in Colorado/Wyoming area?
 
#71
#71
Grand Vol said:
Not really "my" case to be made, but there are a lot of advantages of an AR over a shotty for home defense applications...

1. Accuracy. In almost each and every case, an AR is way more accurate than a shotgun due to the design and single shot. Almost every modern AR one comes in contact these days with will come with a flattop and red dot or holo sights are reasonable cheap and ready available. With a shotgun, especially a short barrel design as AMD pointed out, can be "accurate" up close but generally speaking, you still deal with spread issues with most loads people would buy and increasing your chances of missing a target even unintentionally. Bring me to my next point...

2. Follow up. Facing facts here, an AR is extremely controllable even in an SBR form, though most people will have a 16 inch barreled carbine. There is a distinct lack of recoil making follow up shots easy again, with any sighting system. If (or when) you are faced with multiple intruders, quick follow up shots are imperative and an AR is clearly superior to a shotgun in the recoil management/quick follow up. You can be quick with a shotgun, but that brings me to my next point:

3. Training. Training on a scattergun takes a lot of time, ammo and constant refresher to maintain that edge you need to be effective. This is obviously where I part company with Brandon and the effectiveness of a shotgun for home defense. Yeah, there is a "psychological edge" with a pump action, but not saying there isn't a psychological edge with some crazed man or woman in their sleeping clothes slicing the pie with an AR (especially one with a weapon mounted light). Regardless, you can "train" a person on how to employ an AR in a half hour or less and with maybe a hundred rounds or so. At least enough to defend themselves at home. Okay, sure, it takes a lot more time and effort for someone to become competent in "combat shooting" but if something goes bump in the night, "good enough" is "good enough" especially if given the choice between a shotgun someone fools around with once a year or grabbing the AR they know isn't going to hammer them with recoil. Any child (or adults that act like children) can easily handle an AR without in depth training. There still needs to be training, but the amount to overcome the recoil of a shotgun is far more than the amount to effectively put rounds on target with an AR.

4. Lethality. This is subjective as a close range load of shotgun buck or a slug/sabot will be quite lethal, but the AR does have an edge due to the fact even "cheap" ammo tends to fragment. And more often than not, homeowners will not always buy effective shotgun loads like the Federal Flight Control or Winchester PDX. Honestly though, most .223 or 5.56mm ammo can be bought for around the same price and (outside of the steel jacketed Russian stuff and light varmint loads) will be far more effective than the 7.5 birdshot loads homeowners would buy. Hitting with one .223 center mass will be a deal breaker especially with the hydrostatic shock an AR can deliver. There is no "dead right there" HD load in either platform. You can take the fight out of a person with either system, but doing it quicker with an AR with follow up shots.

5. Capacity. You're going to get 5-8 rounds out of a shotgun before you start having to reload. You get up to 30 or more out of an AR. The math here is simple. Reloading an AR takes mere seconds even under a stressful situation. Reloading a shotgun without training? Yeah, even with the Tacticool side scabbard with reloads or 30 round slight belts, this one sells itself.

6. Range. Yes, for "home defense" you are looking at limited ranges. But a lot of houses have 45-60 feet of distance in some places. Anything past 30 feet and that shotgun load starts to come apart (except when using the aforementioned loads like the Federal and whatnot). That AR bullet will still be true at that distance. While this is a minor point, it's still major if you are shooting past rooms with children or other loved ones.

7. Penetration. Or overpenetration in this case. An AR load in .223 caliber tends to go in and stop which is why a lot of tac teams moved away from platforms like the MP5 and back to an AR platform after the great SMG craze of the 90s. A pistol round actually can penetrate more than a rifle load. Shotgun loads can (and will) continue going regardless of what they hit along the way. Even a couple of layers of sheetrock can stop or significantly slow down an AR round since it will fragment after hitting something.

8. Price. Of course, shotguns are typically less expensive than an AR... for a cheap model, sure. But for a "good" shotgun to bet your life with (Winchester/FN, Mossberg or Remington are the only brands I recommend) it ends up being far closer in price. You can buy a "good" AR (S&W, Ruger, PSA, etc) for around $650-700 and drop a cheap RDS like a Primary Arms on it for another hundred bucks or so. A "good" shotgun like a Mossberg 500 or 590? $600-650 with the added price of the RDS. This one, again, sells itself as the AR is far more customizable at the end.

9. Adaptability. As stated, any AR is like an adult Barbie since you can customize it with thousands of after market parts and pieces. Most things can be done at home with a many of the AR items (I don't recommend grip changes without the proper tools, training and patience to find that detent spring and detent after it flies out). Yes, shotguns have become a lot more customizable in recent years, but you can't swing a cat in any gun shop in America without hitting some piece of aftermarket AR kit.

The advantages of an AR platform over a shotgun for home defense are honestly very clear. It's a system that lends itself to close quarters all the way out to 300 meters or further with the right ammo/system. I used to be in the "use a shotgun because of the psychological advantages!" crowd. But after I started looking at the two side by side, the AR came off clearly superior to a shotgun for the intended use. My "home defense" setup is my BCM 16 inch midlength with a EOTech 553 and a Surefire Scout rail mounted light with 30 rounds of Winchester RA556B ammo and spare mags loaded with the same. It also serves as my SHTF rifle, so, that works both ways.
Click to expand...

How much of this (for the AR) would apply to a 9mm carbine?
 
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#72
#72
AM64 said:
That's the thing about politicians. They go for the short term and don't consider the long term effect ... almost seems like they are among the most mentally challenged of our citizens.
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Tale as old as time.
 
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#73
#73
Rasputin_Vol said:
The only problem I see is with the first point regarding accuracy. I think the average homeowner is not going to have the time and/or have the ability to be shooting accurately with sights or a scope when the adrenaline is flowing at 3:00 am and trouble comes calling. It will likely be spray and pray. Bit that's just me thinking about it. Outside of that, I can see the rest of your points.
Click to expand...

I think a homeowner would be more likely to use the red dot even in the heat of the moment of it was available. Just me though and training overcomes that problem. Even limited training most owners do.
 
#74
#74
AM64 said:
That's the thing about politicians. They go for the short term and don't consider the long term effect ... almost seems like they are among the most mentally challenged of our citizens.
Click to expand...

Hey that's someone else's problem.
 
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#75
#75
volinbham said:
How much of this (for the AR) would apply to a 9mm carbine?
Click to expand...

Almost none of it. See my MP5 comments.

I'm not opposed to a pistol caliber carbine as a HD weapon. But as stated, that 9mm round will overpenetrate. It's a weight and velocity thing. A normal FMJ .223 round going at anything above 2,400 FPS (I may be incorrect on that speed, might be a bit lower) will or should fragment. Same goes for a a lot of the lighter HP designs. Once you get into heavier bullets like 70 grain and above, you could see some overpenetration.

Long story short, a lighter bullet like a 55 or 62 grain dumps a lot of energy when it hits. That's why varmint rounds are so light and devastating to small critters. All that energy is dumped almost immediately. A pistol round, while going fast, still retains a lot of energy and will continue moving until that energy is spent. Even "fat and heavy" .45 ACP rounds take a lot to slow them down. HP designs help in this regard, but most homeowners will end up buying a pack of WWB FMJ loads and call it good.

A pistol caliber carbine is better than a shotgun and a shotgun is better than a pistol which are all better than a sharp stick, but not my first choice honestly.
 
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