Bible Topic Thread (merged)

#277
#277
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
The pharisee mentality is only part of it. It's the part that started me on my quest. Once I really took a look at the Bible for myself, and I'm not talking about some pastor's version of what it says, but taking what it actually says, I was appauled. It is my personal conclusion that the Bible is a collection of ancient texts written by early man detailing God as he saw him. Much of it is no doubt historically accurate, as it is a written history of the nation of Israel. It is not, however, the infallable word of God in my opinion. With that in mind, I don't really know what I believe about God. I do believe that there is a higher power that created the universe simply because I don't accept that it was random chance. Beyond that I really don't know.
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I guess that is a bit different then! Obviously way too tough to talk about on a message, but I guess at the end of the day it comes down to faith. If you don't mind I would like to pray that God will reveal himself to you. Obviously I will be praying to Jesus, but I will not pray for anything other then for God to reveal himself to you.
 
#279
#279
God has designed us for relationship not only with himself but also with others of our kind. After God created the world, he stepped back to look at his work and pronounced it "very good." However, before his creation was complete, he said that one thing-and only one-was not good. "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him" (Genesis 2:18). God planned for Adam, and all mankind, to need human companionship. In other words, God made people to need and desire others besides himself.

Christ is Heaven's center of gravity, but we don't diminish his importance by enjoying natural wonders, angels, or people. On the contrary, we'll exalt him and draw closer to him as we enjoy all he created.
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Will we recognize each other?

Christ's disciples recognized him countless times after his resurrection.
Another indication that we'll recognize people in Heaven is Christ's transfiguration. Christ's disciples recognized the bodies of Moses and Elijah, even though the disciples couldn't have known what the two men looked like (Luke 9:29-33). This may suggest that personality will emanate through a person's body, so we'll instantly recognize people we know of but haven't actually met. If we can recognize those we've never seen, how much more will we recognize our family and friends?
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Will there be marriage, families, and friendships?

Heaven won't be without families but will be one big family, in which all family members are friends and all friends are family members. We'll have family relationships with people who were our blood family on Earth. But we'll also have family relationships with our friends, both old and new. When someone told Jesus that his mother and brothers were wanting to see him, he replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice" (Luke 8:19-21). Jesus also said that those who follow him will gain "brothers, sisters, mothers, children" (Mark 10:29-30).

[The Bible] says that there will be one marriage, between Christ and his bride--and we'll all be part of it. The one-flesh marital union we know on Earth is a signpost pointing to our relationship with Christ as our bridegroom. Once we reach the destination, the signpost becomes unnecessary. That one marriage-our marriage to Christ-will be so completely satisfying that even the most wonderful earthly marriage couldn't be as fulfilling.
Earthly marriage is a shadow, a copy, an echo of the true and ultimate marriage.
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Will there be sex?

Because sex was designed to be part of a marriage relationship, marriage and sex logically belong together. Because we're told that humans won't be married to each other, and sex is intended for marriage, then logically we won't be engaging in sex.
If we won't have sex in Heaven and if in Heaven there's no frustration of desire, then it appears we won't desire sex. This isn't because we won't have physical desires, of course--we'll desire food and water. But what we will desire--and always enjoy--is the relational intimacy that was the best part of sex. We may discover that sex prefigured what it means to be lost in intimacy with Christ.
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#280
#280
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
The pharisee mentality is only part of it. It's the part that started me on my quest. Once I really took a look at the Bible for myself, and I'm not talking about some pastor's version of what it says, but taking what it actually says, I was appauled. It is my personal conclusion that the Bible is a collection of ancient texts written by early man detailing God as he saw him. Much of it is no doubt historically accurate, as it is a written history of the nation of Israel. It is not, however, the infallable word of God in my opinion. With that in mind, I don't really know what I believe about God. I do believe that there is a higher power that created the universe simply because I don't accept that it was random chance. Beyond that I really don't know.
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Not to sound harsh, but how did you come to that conclusion? I will also be praying for you, and everyone else on here, that God's will shall be done in your life and that God will reveil himself to you and show you the truth.
 
#281
#281
sea of orange said:
Not to sound harsh, but how did you come to that conclusion?
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For me to accept that the Bible is the literal word of God, I would have to accept that the same God who told his followers in the gospels to love their enemies and do good toward everyone, also commanded the Israelites to committ several acts of genocide throughout the OT. That may not be a problem for many christians, but it is a huge problem for me. Add that to the fact that the Bible is full of contradictions and I just believe it is the work of man.
 
#282
#282
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
I wouldn't say buffoons really, but this is just the sort of thing that made me reconsider whether I really wanted to be a christian or not, and had alot to do with why I ultimately walked away from everything I had once believed.

I just find it interesting when those who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ act more like the Pharisees that Jesus was constantly condemning than they do like their Lord.
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Good post!

:good!:
 
#283
#283
Does it bother any one else that Heaven is described like a Borg cube?

:unsure:

borgkubus.jpg
 
#287
#287
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
The pharisee mentality is only part of it. It's the part that started me on my quest. Once I really took a look at the Bible for myself, and I'm not talking about some pastor's version of what it says, but taking what it actually says, I was appauled. It is my personal conclusion that the Bible is a collection of ancient texts written by early man detailing God as he saw him. Much of it is no doubt historically accurate, as it is a written history of the nation of Israel. It is not, however, the infallable word of God in my opinion. With that in mind, I don't really know what I believe about God. I do believe that there is a higher power that created the universe simply because I don't accept that it was random chance. Beyond that I really don't know.
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Given what you know of the word and what is at stake in the answer, is there anything more important than figuring out this answer? Fallible man botching and politically gerrymandering the Bible shouldn't in any way impact your beliefs in the overarching tenets of the Bible.
 
#288
#288
BigPapaVol said:
Given what you know of the word and what is at stake in the answer is there anything more important than figuring out this answer? Fallible man botching and politically gerrymandering the Bible shouldn't in any way impact your beliefs in the overarching tenets of the Bible.
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You just stung another one of my tender spots where the Bible is concerned. The God who your bible says is the very definition of love is going to cast everyone who didn't get it right into an eternal torture chamber called hell. You want to talk about the punishment not fitting the crime.
 
#289
#289
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
You just stung another one of my tender spots where the Bible is concerned. The God who your bible says is the very definition of love is going to cast everyone who didn't get it right into an eternal torture chamber called hell. You want to talk about the punishment not fitting the crime.
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That could be another spot of "interpretation" by the authors / translators to make the point. Additionally, relative to heaven, where we are today might be considered a pit of fire. I've had many of the same debates because my personal makeup is one of logic. Much of the entire Bible, contradictions and all, defies any logic that I try to apply. Then, shoved in my face is stuff like "well, you just haven't fully opened your heart" or "Satan is at work in you". That's not much of an answer, but when I think about the likelihood of Christiany becoming what it did in the face of some overwhelming odds against, I don't struggle quite so much.

Finally, I think about those first martyrs after Jesus' resurrection. Those guys knew 100% for sure whether their story about Jesus' resurrection was true and could have backed off at any time, yet to a man they chose to be put death rather than change the story. Those guys are hard to argue with. History is littered with martyrs dying for their beliefs, but I know of no examples of people who died for fledgling ideas that they knew to be bunk.
 
#290
#290
I have mentioned it on the board before, but C.S. Lewis' attempt to describe heaven is one of the best that I have seen. He does it in a book called "The Great Divorce"
 
#291
#291
BigPapaVol said:
That could be another spot of "interpretation" by the authors / translators to make the point. Additionally, relative to heaven, where we are today might be considered a pit of fire. I've had many of the same debates because my personal makeup is one of logic. Much of the entire Bible, contradictions and all, defies any logic that I try to apply. Then, shoved in my face is stuff like "well, you just haven't fully opened your heart" or "Satan is at work in you". That's not much of an answer, but when I think about the likelihood of Christiany becoming what it did in the face of some overwhelming odds against, I don't struggle quite so much.

Finally, I think about those first martyrs after Jesus' resurrection. Those guys knew 100% for sure whether their story about Jesus' resurrection was true and could have backed off at any time, yet to a man they chose to be put death rather than change the story. Those guys are hard to argue with. History is littered with martyrs dying for their beliefs, but I know of no examples of people who died for fledgling ideas that they knew to be bunk.
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The one thing in the Bible that I can't bring myself to question is the gospel accounts of Jesus. You see, I do believe in Jesus Christ. My problem has never been with God, it is with organized religion. When the church tells us that some letter that Paul wrote to a small church in Corinth or wherever was meant to apply to all people at all times, I don't agree. While I do think there are some points in those letters that are good to apply to our lives today, I don't think they carry any more authority than if your pastor goes on a long vacation and writes a letter back to his church.

I also find it amusing that the pastor (at least in my experience), when asked about something like the eating of unclean animals, or the wearing of mixed fabrics, will tell you that the Law of Moses no longer applies, yet they will tell you that eight of the ten commandments are still in force, plus the tithe. We can't forget the tithe. That's why I get so annoyed when the church starts taking a stand against homosexuality or something else like that in society. Either all of the law of Moses applies or none of it does. I'm rambling now so I'll shut up.
 
#292
#292
We see more eye to eye than you might think. Church has grown from means of control over people to more of a huge business. Unfortunately, that has led to myriad problems. It doesn't change my stand that Jesus is savior, God is sovereign and Jesus' father and I, in the absence of Christ as interlocutor, cannot ever be in God's graces.
 
#293
#293
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
The one thing in the Bible that I can't bring myself to question is the gospel accounts of Jesus. You see, I do believe in Jesus Christ. My problem has never been with God, it is with organized religion. When the church tells us that some letter that Paul wrote to a small church in Corinth or wherever was meant to apply to all people at all times, I don't agree. While I do think there are some points in those letters that are good to apply to our lives today, I don't think they carry any more authority than if your pastor goes on a long vacation and writes a letter back to his church.
I also find it amusing that the pastor (at least in my experience), when asked about something like the eating of unclean animals, or the wearing of mixed fabrics, will tell you that the Law of Moses no longer applies, yet they will tell you that eight of the ten commandments are still in force, plus the tithe. We can't forget the tithe. That's why I get so annoyed when the church starts taking a stand against homosexuality or something else like that in society. Either all of the law of Moses applies or none of it does. I'm rambling now so I'll shut up.
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IMO the Apostles account of Christ and his teaching carry more weight because they walked and talked with Him where a pastor is interpreting those accounts and ideas.

Moses wasn't the only one who spoke of tithing. Malachi 3:6-18 also talks about it which was not written by Moses. There are many things in the OT that were Jewish law to protect the people like throwing away clay pots that held raw meat. Now I really don't think that applies to us.

I kow you said you were rambling but...
Romans 1: 16-32 specifically verses 26 and 27.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 "Do you not know that the wicked will NOT inherit the Kingdom Of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral not idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor HOMOSEXUALS offenders V10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God."

Paul, in Corinthians, lumped homosexual behavior with a bunch of other sin or whatever you choose to call them. Now days homosexual behavior is being shoved in the faces of everyone and we are told to accept it as natural and good. BUT as believers in the Bible, the church IMO, should not just sit back and accept it. It has gotten out of hand with gay pride day, people claiming you are racist or sexist if you speak out against homosexuality, people wanting civil rights laws for gay people and so on.
I don't hear people talking about rights for drunkards, adulterers, prostitutes like for homosexuals. YET the Bible in Corinthians, written by the Apostle Paul, lumps all of these ACTIONS together. Each one of these are ACTIONS you have to CHOOSE to do.
 
#295
#295
JZVOL said:
IMO the Apostles account of Christ and his teaching carry more weight because they walked and talked with Him where a pastor is interpreting those accounts and ideas.
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There is no account that Paul ever even met Jesus. He certainly didn't walk and talk with him.

JZVOL said:
Moses wasn't the only one who spoke of tithing. Malachi 3:6-18 also talks about it which was not written by Moses.
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It is still in the OT, and was a command to the Israelites to return to following the command in the law. Besides, the tithe is a 10% tax on the crops and the flocks to be paid to the priest. It has nothing to do with giving to the church. It would be more closely compared to an income tax.

JZVOL said:
I kow you said you were rambling but...
Romans 1: 16-32 specifically verses 26 and 27.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 "Do you not know that the wicked will NOT inherit the Kingdom Of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral not idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor HOMOSEXUALS offenders V10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God."
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Paul says that alot of things are sin. I believe in one of his letters (I'm too lazy to look it up right now) he tells women to remain silent.

JZVOL said:
Now days homosexual behavior is being shoved in the faces of everyone and we are told to accept it as natural and good.
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Oh please :shakehead:. The homosexual community is merely asking for the same rights as the rest of us.


JZVOL said:
BUT as believers in the Bible, the church IMO, should not just sit back and accept it.
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So you are one of those people who believes that the church has the right to tell everyone else how to live?

JZVOL said:
It has gotten out of hand with gay pride day, people claiming you are racist or sexist if you speak out against homosexuality, people wanting civil rights laws for gay people and so on.
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So I guess it would be better if people treated gays like second class citizens? :shakehead:
JZVOL said:
I don't hear people talking about rights for drunkards, adulterers, prostitutes like for homosexuals.
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Drunks and adulterers already have the same rights as everyone else. And I will talk about the rights of prostitutes. It should be legal!

JZVOL said:
YET the Bible in Corinthians, written by the Apostle Paul, lumps all of these ACTIONS together. Each one of these are ACTIONS you have to CHOOSE to do.
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Then you should CHOOSE to not do them if you feel so strongly about it.
 
#297
#297
Obviously there is nothing I can say that you will agree with so I'll leave you with some quotes of what some people have said about the Bible

Abe Lincoln "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good of the Saviour of the world is communicated to us through this book."

George Washington "It is impossible to to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."

Napolean "The Bible is no mere book, but a Living Creature, with a power that conquers all that oppose it."

U.S. Grant "The Bible is the sheet-anchor of our liberties."

Patrick Henry "The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."

Andrew Jackson " THAT BOOK, SIR, IS THE ROCK ON WHICH OUR REPUBLIC RESTS."

Immanuel Kant " The existence of the Bible, as a book for the people, is the greatest benefit which the human race has ever experienced. EVERY ATTEMPT TO BELITTLE IT IS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY."

Sir Isaac Newton "There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history."
 
#298
#298
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
You just stung another one of my tender spots where the Bible is concerned. The God who your bible says is the very definition of love is going to cast everyone who didn't get it right into an eternal torture chamber called hell. You want to talk about the punishment not fitting the crime.
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All that you have to do is ask Christ into your life and you are assured a ticket to heaven. That is it. No strings attached.
God does not want anyone to go to Hell. If you ignore him and push him aside, you are throwing yourself into Hell.
We all deserve to go to Hell, but God is gracious enough to stretch out his ever-loving hand towards us. You and only you can chose whether or not to take it.
 
#299
#299
sea of orange said:
All that you have to do is ask Christ into your life and you are assured a ticket to heaven. That is it. No strings attached.
God does not want anyone to go to Hell. If you ignore him and push him aside, you are throwing yourself into Hell.
We all deserve to go to Hell, but God is gracious enough to stretch out his ever-loving hand towards us. You and only you can chose whether or not to take it.
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I think you've helped him make his point here. Deserving to go to Hell for being born is a bit tough to fathom given that the only way to avoid it is this leap of faith. Logical human minds understandably struggle with this.
 
#300
#300
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
The one thing in the Bible that I can't bring myself to question is the gospel accounts of Jesus. You see, I do believe in Jesus Christ. My problem has never been with God, it is with organized religion. When the church tells us that some letter that Paul wrote to a small church in Corinth or wherever was meant to apply to all people at all times, I don't agree. While I do think there are some points in those letters that are good to apply to our lives today, I don't think they carry any more authority than if your pastor goes on a long vacation and writes a letter back to his church.
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The Bible IS the word of God spoken through his followers.
1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.
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