Bible Topic Thread (merged)

[JZVOL]

You have read it in my posts. You are welcome for your newfound awareness.

How have you found this truth? I'm really wondering how all of the Christian men I have been around have never mentioned this. Again I've read and talked with clergy like my grandfather and non clergy and it has never been mentioned. Wouldn't people that have been to seminary and study the Bible for a living know this? It just seems if that was fact there would be more of a discussion about it. Again i'm not being sarcastic about these questions.

 

[therealUT]

How have you found this truth? I'm really wondering how all of the Christian men I have been around have never mentioned this. Again I've read and talked with clergy like my grandfather and non clergy and it has never been mentioned. Wouldn't people that have been to seminary and study the Bible for a living know this? It just seems if that was fact there would be more of a discussion about it. Again i'm not being sarcastic about these questions.

They do. They are called Catholic Theologians, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope. They have espoused this same Christian virtue for 2000 years. The other Christian sects are not so much 'Christian' as they are protests against the Catholic Church. They turned away from the teachings of Paul (and most of the teachings of John, as well as a few books in the Old Testament) because these teachings laid the foundation for the Dogma of the Catholic Church. It should not surprise you that these sects turned away from these scriptures 500 years ago and still turn away from them today.

 

[JZVOL]

Here is another question UT. If all sex is immoral how are we supposed to pro-create? If the command was to go forth and multiply yet Paul says all sex is immoral that would make no sense.

 

[JZVOL]

They do. They are called Catholic Theologians, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope. They have espoused this same Christian virtue for 2000 years. The other Christian sects are not so much 'Christian' as they are protests against the Catholic Church. They turned away from the teachings of Paul (and most of the teachings of John, as well as a few books in the Old Testament) because these teachings laid the foundation for the Dogma of the Catholic Church. It should not surprise you that these sects turned away from these scriptures 500 years ago and still turn away from them today.

Like I said I'm not a Biblical historian so you could be right but I will look into this more. If all of these Catholic's are so correct why do they still go through priests to ask for forgiveness of sin? Since the blood-sacrifice of Christ I can go directly to Christ who speaks to the Father on my behalf. I don't need a priest between Christ and Me.

 

[therealUT]

Here is another question UT. If all sex is immoral how are we supposed to pro-create? If the command was to go forth and multiply yet Paul says all sex is immoral that would make no sense.

We are born with original sin. It is the sin our parents committed in order to conceive us. Hence, Jesus was born of a virgin mother and was therefore clean.

Also, we are all sinners. God understands and accepts this. This is why God is merciful. However, I would suspect that people who are to devote their lives to the service of God and to leading others to God and to God's word, should strive in all ways to rid their lives of sin. Choosing to marry flies in the face of that. Paul very clearly articulated this point.

The fact that the 12 Apostles were single also seems to clarify the point. Jesus did not choose family men to follow him. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[therealUT]

Like I said I'm not a Biblical historian so you could be right but I will look into this more. If all of these Catholic's are so correct why do they still go through priests to ask for forgiveness of sin? Since the blood-sacrifice of Christ I can go directly to Christ who speaks to the Father on my behalf. I don't need a priest between Christ and Me.

We can ask God, in our private prayers for forgiveness. However, there is no guarantee that our prayers were answered. 'Upon this rock, I build my kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.' Do you recall Jesus telling this to Peter (the first Pope of the Catholic Church.) From that moment on, Peter, the Apostles, and newly ordained priests began listening to sinners and forgiving sins. It has been Catholic Dogma since. We know, when we complete our pennance, that our sins have been forgiven. Protestants who simply ask forgiveness in their private prayers are still left wondering.

Also, our pennance served on Earth takes place of pennance served in Purgatory. I would rather get as much out of the way while I am here and enter Heaven all the sooner after I die. That is just my preference though.

 

[JZVOL]

We are born with original sin. It is the sin our parents committed in order to conceive us. Hence, Jesus was born of a virgin mother and was therefore clean.

Also, we are all sinners. God understands and accepts this. This is why God is merciful. However, I would suspect that people who are to devote their lives to the service of God and to leading others to God and to God's word, should strive in all ways to rid their lives of sin. Choosing to marry flies in the face of that. Paul very clearly articulated this point.

The fact that the 12 Apostles were single also seems to clarify the point. Jesus did not choose family men to follow him. Coincidence? I think not.

Great points and that all makes a lot of sense! I would love to speak with you in person because it's tough to get a good feel for this stuff on a message board.

You may think I'm way off but I have a problem with clergy that make a lot of $ because they are not supposed to be lovers of $

 

[JZVOL]

We can ask God, in our private prayers for forgiveness. However, there is no guarantee that our prayers were answered. 'Upon this rock, I build my kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.' Do you recall Jesus telling this to Peter (the first Pope of the Catholic Church.) From that moment on, Peter, the Apostles, and newly ordained priests began listening to sinners and forgiving sins. It has been Catholic Dogma since. We know, when we complete our pennance, that our sins have been forgiven. Protestants who simply ask forgiveness in their private prayers are still left wondering.

Also, our pennance served on Earth takes place of pennance served in Purgatory. I would rather get as much out of the way while I am here and enter Heaven all the sooner after I die. That is just my preference though.

I agree with some of what you say but why can a priest who is a sinner forgive me of my sin or let me know that God forgave me of my sin? Christ is the one who forgives not another man.

I've been taught and believe there is no purgatory. When Christ died he freed the old saints from the Paradise section of the underworld therefore it now sits empty. When one dies they go to Heaven or Hell waiting on the Judgement.

 

[therealUT]

Great points and that all makes a lot of sense! I would love to speak with you in person because it's tough to get a good feel for this stuff on a message board.

You may think I'm way off but I have a problem with clergy that make a lot of $ because they are not supposed to be lovers of $

As you have probably already assessed, I enjoy any serious discussions about any issue. I particularly enjoy discussions of faith, especially when conflicting views are presented (probably one of the reasons I ended up marrying a Southern Baptist woman.)

I also have a problem with clergy who make a lot of money. It is why I tend to be more inclined to find a parish that is staffed by Benedictans rather then Diocesans.

I agree with some of what you say but why can a priest who is a sinner forgive me of my sin or let me know that God forgave me of my sin? Christ is the one who forgives not another man.

I've been taught and believe there is no purgatory. When Christ died he freed the old saints from the Paradise section of the underworld therefore it now sits empty. When one dies they go to Heaven or Hell waiting on the Judgement.

The priest does not forgive the sinner. God forgives the sinner. The priest ascribes the pennance, though.

I understand you have been taught there is no purgatory. The main foundations for purgatory are found in Maccabees, Sirach, and Wisdom (books of the Catholic Old Testament.) However, I believe that anyone who desires to be a good person, who has not consciously devoted their life to Satan, ends up in Heaven. I also believe that one who dies is 'pure' at the time of their death. I cannot fathom that there are any impurities in heaven. Therefore, the place in which souls are cleansed and purified prior to complete union with God (heaven) is purgatory.

 

[JZVOL]

Not that you care but I very much respect what you have had to say, and I will look into all of this and hopefully we can discuss it more.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

TRUT, I could not for life of me see you married to a Southern Baptist Woman.

Do you get along with her family?

 

[therealUT]

TRUT, I could not for life of me see you married to a Southern Baptist Woman.

Do you get along with her family?

Believe it or not, my mom was raised Southern Baptist (in East Tennessee) and converted to Catholicism after I was born (I was the third of three...so, about 6 or 7 years into my parents marriage). My dad comes from a large Irish and Catholic family.

I guess I kind of followed his footsteps...my wife has yet to convert, though we attend Mass every Sunday. However, we also make it to a Baptist service at least once a month (two Church service Sundays for us.)

I get along with her family as much as a midwest suburban raised Catholic kid with a business degree and a career as an Army Officer can get along with East Tennessee Southern Baptist saw millers. I think we all learn a lot from each other, which can't be a bad thing. After all, God is wisdom, right?

 

[JZVOL]

As you have probably already assessed, I enjoy any serious discussions about any issue. I particularly enjoy discussions of faith, especially when conflicting views are presented (probably one of the reasons I ended up marrying a Southern Baptist woman.)

I also have a problem with clergy who make a lot of money. It is why I tend to be more inclined to find a parish that is staffed by Benedictans rather then Diocesans.


The priest does not forgive the sinner. God forgives the sinner. The priest ascribes the pennance, though.

I understand you have been taught there is no purgatory. The main foundations for purgatory are found in Maccabees, Sirach, and Wisdom (books of the Catholic Old Testament.) However, I believe that anyone who desires to be a good person, who has not consciously devoted their life to Satan, ends up in Heaven. I also believe that one who dies is 'pure' at the time of their death. I cannot fathom that there are any impurities in heaven. Therefore, the place in which souls are cleansed and purified prior to complete union with God (heaven) is purgatory.

That makes sense then since I'm not Catholic.

I believe apart from Christ there is no good. I can see your point but Christ said I'm the way, truth and life and nobody can go to Father except through me. Also God can't be in the presence of sin and I don'tthink people that haven't been forgiven of their sin could be in His presence. That's wht they had blood sacrifices in the Old Testament and Christ's blood on calvary. without the blood covering one's sin I don't believe you can enter into His kingdom.

 

[therealUT]

Not that you care but I very much respect what you have had to say, and I will look into all of this and hopefully we can discuss it more.

I definitely care. I might come off as very blunt and harsh in my arguments. But please do not mistake that for a lack of caring or an ability to see the world with good humor. I just refrain from sugar coating a lot of my arguments.

I do read and process everything I respond to on these message boards. I also, though I might make statements that some things are 'moral' or 'immoral' refrain from actually making much judgment, as I believe myself to be the most sinful person I know (probably because I know my own thoughts and personal battles I face every day.) Anyway, if everyone in this world lived a perfectly 'moral' life then the world would be a rather dull and drab place, IMO.

 

[therealUT]

That makes sense then since I'm not Catholic.

I believe apart from Christ there is no good. I can see your point but Christ said I'm the way, truth and life and nobody can go to Father except through me. Also God can't be in the presence of sin and I don'tthink people that haven't been forgiven of their sin could be in His presence. That's wht they had blood sacrifices in the Old Testament and Christ's blood on calvary. without the blood covering one's sin I don't believe you can enter into His kingdom.

I don't believe that anyone fully believes in Christ until they find themselves dead and in purgatory. That cleansing begins, and part of that cleansing is the 100% realization that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are real.

 

[JZVOL]

I definitely care. I might come off as very blunt and harsh in my arguments. But please do not mistake that for a lack of caring or an ability to see the world with good humor. I just refrain from sugar coating a lot of my arguments.

I do read and process everything I respond to on these message boards. I also, though I might make statements that some things are 'moral' or 'immoral' refrain from actually making much judgment, as I believe myself to be the most sinful person I know (probably because I know my own thoughts and personal battles I face every day.) Anyway, if everyone in this world lived a perfectly 'moral' life then the world would be a rather dull and drab place, IMO.

I totally agree with that (about me that is). I really respect you a ton and I do want to apoligize if I've ever been too sarcastic because I have a problem with that.

 

[therealUT]

No need to apologize. I can't dish out what I do if I can't take it.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Sins are already forgiven. Hence the crucifixion and resurrection. Also in the Lord's Prayer it is given that we can ask for this forgiveness directly and no need to go through a priest.

 

[therealUT]

Sins are already forgiven. Hence the crucifixion and resurrection.

Interesting philosophy. So, what keeps you from seeking nothing but pleasure in this life? However great your sins, you know that they are already forgiven, hence you are pure at every single moment of your life, save the moments when you are actually committing the sin?

Also in the Lord's Prayer it is given that we can ask for this forgiveness directly and no need to go through a priest.

"If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions." This seems to imply that we humans must take the first action in the steps toward forgiveness. (Mt 6:14-15)

Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

John 20:21-23

So, Jesus clearly gave the power to forgive sins to his priests on earth. Yet, if Jesus' death and resurrection have forgiven all sins, then why does Jesus need to empower anyone else to forgive sins? Why would Jesus himself even have to forgive any more sins?

 

[CSpindizzy]

Um well the fact you have to actually accept what Jesus has given. He never said "feel free to now do whatever". Forgiving others' transgressions is not the same as Christ's forgiveness of sins. A serial killer can forgive the transgressions of his abusive father. That does not mean either's sins are forgiven.

Read Acts 8:22. Who does Paul say to pray to repent to? Read Mark 2:7-10. No one on this earth has authority to forgive sins.

 

[CSpindizzy]

And why did Christ come if repentance could be done through a priest? Just take your goat to the temple.

 

[therealUT]

Um well the fact you have to actually accept what Jesus has given. He never said "feel free to now do whatever". Forgiving others' transgressions is not the same as Christ's forgiveness of sins. A serial killer can forgive the transgressions of his abusive father. That does not mean either's sins are forgiven.

Read Acts 8:22. Who does Paul say to pray to repent to? Read Mark 2:7-10. No one on this earth has authority to forgive sins.

Now some of the scribes were sitting there asking themselves, "Why does this amn speak that way? He is blaspheming. Who but God alone can forgive sins?" Jesus immediately knew in his mind what they were thinking to themselves, so he said, "Why are you thinking such things in your hearts? Which is easier to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise, pick up your mat and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth"

Mark 2:6-10

Not sure if you were trying to place Jesus' words into the mouths of the scribes of Capernaum? Also, Jesus states that he has the authority to forgive sins. He never said he had the sole authority to do so. Which, even if he had the sole authority, what would preclude him from granting that authority to others?

Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who went down and prayed for them, they they might receive the holy Spirit, for it had not yet fallen upon any of them (the Samarians); They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit.
When Simon (the Magician, not Simon Peter) saw that the Spirit was conferred by the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money and said, "Give me this power too, so that anyone upon whom I lay my hands may receive the holy Spirit." But Peter said to him, "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money. You have no share or lot in this matter, for your heart is not upright before God. Repent of this wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, your intention may be forgiven. For I see that you are filled with bitter gall and are in the bonds of iniquity."

Acts 8:14-23

I doubt that because the Apostles chose not to forgive this mans sins, it in any way implies that the Apostles were not empowered to forgive sins from those they deemed worthy of forgiveness.

Again, I will provide you with the direct quote from the Gospel of John

"Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Jn 20:23

Looks to me like the Apostles chose to retain the sins of Simon the Magician, in accordance with the power that Jesus had directly bestowed upon them.

 

[therealUT]

And why did Christ come if repentance could be done through a priest? Just take your goat to the temple.

Simply because prior to Christ's crucifixion, there was absolutely no forgiveness and no heaven for anyone.

However, since you bring it up. Hell is eternal damnation. If there is no purgatory, then how is this explained:

But Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit. And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many sainds who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Mt 27:50-53

So, that place of existence, after bodily death, between heaven and hell is what again?

 

[CSpindizzy]

I must have missed a deleted post somewhere. Who mentioned purgatory?

 

[CSpindizzy]

He never said he had the sole authority? How do you get he gave anyone else authority? No man comes to the Father except by Him.

Using your Acts 8 example, who again does Peter say to pray to?

Repent of this wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, your intention may be forgiven. For I see that you are filled with bitter gall and are in the bonds of iniquity."

Acts 8:14-23