Bible Topic Thread (merged)

#53
#53
CSpindizzy said:
He never said he had the sole authority? How do you get he gave anyone else authority? No man comes to the Father except by Him.

Using your Acts 8 example, who again does Peter say to pray to?

Repent of this wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, your intention may be forgiven. For I see that you are filled with bitter gall and are in the bonds of iniquity."

Acts 8:14-23
Click to expand...
First, he expressly gives the authority to the apostles in the Gospel of John. It is right there in every version of the Bible.

Yes, Peter told the man to ask the Lord for forgiveness. That in no way means that Peter did not have the authority to forgive the man. He chose not to.
 
#54
#54
CSpindizzy said:
Where does Peter actually forgive the sins of this man?
Click to expand...
Peter did not forgive the sins of that man. Just because Jesus empowered the Apostles with the ability to forgive sins, in no way means they are obliged to forgive every sin.
 
#55
#55
therealUT said:
First, he expressly gives the authority to the apostles in the Gospel of John. It is right there in every version of the Bible.

Yes, Peter told the man to ask the Lord for forgiveness. That in no way means that Peter did not have the authority to forgive the man. He chose not to.
Click to expand...

Read it in the original Greek. You're taking John way out of context. Peter chose not to? Why? Convenient the example you use to support your point actually does not and you assume your point because "he chose not to". Is that backed up in Scripture?
 
#56
#56
CSpindizzy said:
Read it in the original Greek. You're taking John way out of context. Peter chose not to? Why? Convenient the example you use to support your point actually does not and you assume your point because "he chose not to". Is that backed up in Scripture?
Click to expand...

I will let Jesus' words stand as they are.

Also, I do not need to further back up anything. I will again, let what I have posted, from Scripture, stand for all to read and come to their own conclusions.
 
#57
#57
therealUT said:
We are born with original sin. It is the sin our parents committed in order to conceive us. Hence, Jesus was born of a virgin mother and was therefore clean.
Click to expand...

How do you explain God giving Eve to Adam in the garden of eden where there was no sin?

Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, for she was taken out of man."

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Genesis 2:22-24
Click to expand...
 
#58
#58
sea of orange said:
How do you explain God giving Eve to Adam in the garden of eden where there was no sin?
Click to expand...
First, there were no Adam and Eve. There are two creation stories in the Bible, that very obviously contradict each other on a literal level, and both are metaphors.

Second, in the story of Adam and Eve, neither was formed with original sin. That all humans born after Adam and Eve would be born with the mark of the fall (original sin) was one of the punishments handed down by God, in the story.
 
#59
#59
therealUT said:
First, there were no Adam and Eve. There are two creation stories in the Bible, that very obviously contradict each other on a literal level, and both are metaphors.

Second, in the story of Adam and Eve, neither was formed with original sin. That all humans born after Adam and Eve would be born with the mark of the fall (original sin) was one of the punishments handed down by God, in the story.
Click to expand...

Your second comment makes sense, but where does it say in the Bible that the garden of eden is a metaphor?
 
#61
#61
therealUT said:
So, then the first creation story is a metaphor, but the second one is historical fact?
Click to expand...

If Adam and Eve were only metaphors, then how did they have a son named Seth, who had Enosh, who had Kenan, who had Mahalalel, who had Jared, who had Enoch, who had Methuselah, who had Lamech, who had Noah, etc.?
 
#62
#62
Do a little theological reading into J, E, P, D and the Book of Genesis. I have a feeling your entire world is about to turn upside down.
 
#64
#64
I am sorry, I am about as kiddy as I can be! This tops any Civil War discussion! :)

Luke 5:17-26

BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: Luke 5:17-26

We believe in the forgiveness of sin. Forgiveness is a hard thing to understand. It's a hard thing to give, and perhaps even harder to receive.

In our day and place, we may not think much about the subject. For many of us us, the subject does not come up. That is because we do not believe that we have ever done anything that was really wrong, or because no one has done anything really wrong to us. Such people, those of us who have lived so preciously, are apt to confuse forgiveness with indifference. That is, when we think about things we have done, or things done to us, we can perhaps say and mean, "It doesn't matter. Forget about it. No harm done."

This is not what forgiveness means. Forgiveness is not required when something doesn't matter. When we bump into someone unintentionally and say, "sorry" or "forgive me", we are simply being polite. And being polite is a good thing. But bumping into someone unintentionally is really not a matter that requires forgiveness.

We can not really understand that forgiveness is required unless we believe in sin. Sin is not impoliteness; it is not forgetfulness. It is something else. And many of us, reacting, perhaps, to simplistic lists of sins so easily parodied watching movies, dancing, using lipstick or whatever, ridicule the notion of sin altogether. At our peril. Sin is real. It is brokenness that can not be healed.

It is besmirching the reputation of your friend by saying things, out of jealousy, that are not true. It is passing by our neighbors in need because we do not want to pay attention to them. It is going along with evil not speaking up, not protesting what we know to be wrong.

It is committing acts of violence and disregard, directly or indirectly, against people whom we somehow consider less deserving or less precious than ourselves. It is taking for granted privileges that we have not earned. It is despising the poor and rationalizing the suffering of the weak.

It is making fun of others to protect ourselves. Such actions are not simple impoliteness. Rather, they reveal the deep brokenness of life, in which we are inextricably involved. And many of us are blind to it. Not knowing pain, because we are deceived or oblivious or willfully stupid, how then can seek forgiveness?

Christianity teaches the forgiveness of sin not as a psychological trick or a careless indifference. It teaches that forgiveness is very costly. It can not be done casually, as if the offense does not matter. Rather, it always involves suffering, at the very deepest level of being, suffering by God.

Those who criticized Jesus for daring to say to he paralyzed man, "Your sins are forgiven." are right. Such words can never be spoken lightly. Only God can forgive sin. But Christians believe that God has spoken that word to us, in Christ Jesus.

We are shown how to forgive, because we have been forgiven by God. And we know what that forgiveness costs. It means that God takes upon himself the pain of our sin, so that we may forgive and be forgiven. And then, as we forgive, our sins, when they are deeply and truly faced, are met not with condemnation, but with forgiveness.

In order to get on with the business of being human, I am not going to be paralyzed. I am going to forgive the one who has harmed me, because I know that I have been forgiven. To be able to say such a thing is to know the power of God, because only God can forgive sin.
 
#65
#65
  1. Mark 2:10, "But that ye may know that the Son of man (Christ) hath power on earth to forgive sins..."
  2. Luke 5:20, "And when he (Christ) saw their faith, he (Christ) said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
  3. Matthew 9:6, "But that ye may know that the Son of man (Christ) hath power on earth to forgive sins..."
  4. Ephesians 4:32, "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
  5. Colossians 2:13, "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him (Christ), having forgiven you ALL TRESPASSES."
  6. 1st Corinthians 15:3, "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures."
  7. 1st Peter 3:18, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he (Christ) might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit."
  8. John 1:29, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
  9. Romans 11:27, "For this is my covenant unto them, when I (Christ) shall take away their sins."
  10. Acts 13:38, "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man (Christ) is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins."
 
#67
#67
OrangeEmpire said:
  1. Mark 2:10, "But that ye may know that the Son of man (Christ) hath power on earth to forgive sins..."
  2. Luke 5:20, "And when he (Christ) saw their faith, he (Christ) said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
  3. Matthew 9:6, "But that ye may know that the Son of man (Christ) hath power on earth to forgive sins..."
  4. Ephesians 4:32, "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
  5. Colossians 2:13, "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him (Christ), having forgiven you ALL TRESPASSES."
  6. 1st Corinthians 15:3, "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures."
  7. 1st Peter 3:18, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he (Christ) might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit."
  8. John 1:29, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
  9. Romans 11:27, "For this is my covenant unto them, when I (Christ) shall take away their sins."
  10. Acts 13:38, "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man (Christ) is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins."
Click to expand...
Glad you arrived, OE...right before my garlic green beans are ready to eat with some chicken and rice. One question though, do you use these scripture passages as evidence against the Apostles' power to forgive sins?
 
#68
#68
therealUT said:
Glad you arrived, OE...right before my garlic green beans are ready to eat with some chicken and rice. One question though, do you use these scripture passages as evidence against the Apostles' power to forgive sins?
Click to expand...

Oh no, I got another batch for that!

LOL!

:thumbsup: :p :hi: :good!:
 
#69
#69
therealUT said:
There are 4 different authors, or oral histories that are abridged and connected, of the Book of Genesis. It is hard to take any part of Genesis as little more than allegory.
Click to expand...

That is merely a theory. I personally believe that Moses wrote Genesis.
 
#71
#71
Remember nowhere in the New Testament can you find one case where any of the Apostles ever forgave anyone's sin. They always pointed their listeners to Jesus Christ. If not one of the Apostles ever made that claim, then those today claiming that power have placed themselves above the Apostles, and equal with Jesus Christ Himself.
1.) Luke 7:47,48,50

"Wherefore I (Christ) say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven..." (vs. 47)

In verse 48, Christ assures this woman her sins have been forgiven:

"And he (Christ) said unto her, THY SINS ARE FORGIVEN."

In verse 50 the Lord gives the reason the woman's sins were forgiven. It is on the same basis that our sins are forgiven, our FAITH IN HIM, and not in a minister or priest. No priest or minister ever died for your sins, but Christ did.

"And he (Christ) said to the woman, Thy FAITH hath saved thee; go in peace."

The Lord Jesus Christ forgave sins while He was on the earth, and is still the only One Who can forgive sins today. Every preacher and priest is a sinner themselves, and needs forgiveness. Notice God's indictment on mankind in Romans 3:23...

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
My Bible says "ALL have sinned"; and I cannot find where it says, "ALL, but preachers and priests." "Coming short of the glory of God" literally means falling short of being as righteous as God, Himself. Therefore, Romans 3:24,25 tell us how and why we have remission of sins...

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his (Christ's) blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."

Where do you find anything about a minister or priest being able to remit your sins? Ask your minister or priest if they are trusting Jesus Christ as the payment for their sin. The clergy go to Heaven the same way the congregation does; that is through Christ and Him alone. If the answer is "Yes," then ask them why you cannot go directly to Christ the same as they?

The only One Who can forgive sin is the One Who is sinless. 2nd Corinthians declares that Christ was without sin...

"For he hath made him (Christ) to be sin (i.e. the payment for sin) for us, WHO KNEW NO SIN; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2nd Corinthians 5:21)
Would any minister or priest dare to claim they are sinless? Remember, only the One Who is without sin can forgive those who are sinners, and that is Christ Jesus. By making the claim they can forgive sins, they are actually placing themselves on equality with Christ and being sinless themselves.

1st John 1:8-10,

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (vs. 8)

"If we confess our sins, he (Christ) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (vs. 9)

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his (Christ's) word is not in us." (vs. 10)

The first chapter of 1st John is written to Christians who sin AFTER they are saved. John is addressing the Christian's service, not salvation. His fellowship with Him and not his Son-ship. His power for Christ as a witness, not his position with Christ in Heaven. Let us closely analyze what the preceding verses actually say.

Who are we to confess sins to? Answer: Jesus Christ.

Who is faithful to forgive our sins? Answer: Jesus Christ.

Who is able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness? Answer: Jesus Christ.

 
#72
#72
The mediator notion...........

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." (John 20:23)

As we compare other verses with John 20:23, we can easily see the only way a Christian, clergy, or layman, can remit sins is by presenting the WORD OF GOD. The Word will judge those who reject it, as Christ stated in John 12:48...

"He that rejecteth me (Christ), and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the WORD that I have spoken, the same (i.e., the Word) shall judge him in the last day."

Psalm 138:2 relates how important the Word of God is

"I will...worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for THOU HAST MAGNIFIED THY WORD ABOVE ALL THY NAME."

The reason the WORD is magnified above His name is that we today would not know the surety of God or His name, if it weren't for the WORD OF GOD.

When a Christian witnesses to a lost person with the WORD of God, as recorded in John 3:16 and 36, that person then has a choice to make. If they accept Christ, they have everlasting life. Should they reject Christ until death, they will then experience the wrath of God in Hell, just as the Word of God has stated in John 3:36...

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

When one believes God's WORD, their sins are then remitted, not by the preacher or priest, but by the WORD OF GOD which promises them eternal life. Should they reject God's WORD, they will retain their sin.

Only by presenting God's Word as a faithful witness for Christ, do we have a part in another person's salvation. This is what Christ meant in John 20:23 when He told His disciples that...

"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

The Greek Word for "remit" is "aphiemi" and literally means "to send away."
 
#73
#73
therealUT said:
Fair enough. Then why did Moses give two contradicting accounts of creation?
Click to expand...

I don't see them contradicting at all. I see them giving two different perspectives from the same person. The first, a broader more generalized view, and the second, focused more on Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden.
 
#74
#74
For OE.

Best counter argument yet. However, simply because there is no record, in the Bible, that the Apostles forgave sinners does not mean it did not happen. Catholic bishops were forgiving sinners while Peter was still the See of Rome. Therefore, he, who was attendent to Jesus for before mentioned John passage and who was given the key to the kingdom of heaven along with the power to bind on earth and it shall be bound in heaven, condoned said act.

Unfortunately, you can't prove a negative. With the clarity of John 20, protestants are put in that position.
 
#75
#75
sea of orange said:
I don't see them contradicting at all. I see them giving two different perspectives from the same person. The first, a broader more generalized view, and the second, focused more on Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden.
Click to expand...

Hang on now...........

Two distinct stories of the creation of humanity are given in Genesis. Genesis 1 is believed to have been written by the "Priestly" author and Genesis 2 by the "Yahwist" author. (Both may well have been groups of authors). The Priestly author is believed to be the more recent, about the 7th to 5th centuries BCE, and the Yahwist story is more primitive, possibly dating from about the 10th century BCE. Scholars still debate these dates, but the majority accept these, or something similar.

Genesis 1:27-30: "So God created man in his own image; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase, fill the earth and subdue it, rule over the fish in the sea, the birds of heaven, and every living thing that moves upon the earth.' God also said, 'I give you all plants that bear seed everywhere on earth, and every tree bearing fruit which yields seed: they shall be yours for food.'" Note that no exception is made for the fruit of any tree in this account.

Genesis 2: 7-8: "Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Thus the man became a living creature." Gen. 2: 15-18: "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to till it and take care of it. He told the man 'You may eat from every tree in the garden, but not from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.'" Gen. 2: 21-22: "And so the Lord God put the man into a trance, and while he slept, he took one of his ribs and closed the flesh over the place. The Lord God then built up the rib, which he had taken out of the man, into a woman,"

The order of creation in Genesis 1 is: heaven and earth, light, vault of heaven (i.e., separation of earthly and heavenly waters), seas and dry land, plants, sun and stars, fish and birds, land animals, and last humans. This order is the same as that of the Persian Zend-Avesta, the sacred book of the Zoroastrians. Zoroastrianism was a powerful religion at about the time of the priestly writer of Genesis. However, Zoroaster probably lived about 1000 BCE, and the Yahwist writer would be unlikely to have had any contact with the Avesta. The original Avesta has not survived; modern adherents of Zoroastrianism use a version that has been recreated from fragments, commentaries, and hymns. The order of creation in Egyptian mythology, which would surely have been familiar to the priestly author, is ocean, sun, atmosphere, earth, and sky.

The order of creation in Genesis 2 is: heaven and earth, man, trees and the Garden of Eden, animals and birds, woman. In Genesis 1 the earth is first covered by water. In Genesis 2 the earth is first dry and barren. In Genesis 1 God creates by simple command: "And God said, let there be light, and there was light." In Genesis 2 God manufactures his creations from dirt or earth, walks in the garden in the cool of the evening, and cannot find the humans when they are hiding. Not only are the creation stories inconsistent, but the conceptions of the power of the deity are utterly different.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top