Bible Topic Thread (merged)

#76
#76
sea of orange said:
I don't see them contradicting at all. I see them giving two different perspectives from the same person. The first, a broader more generalized view, and the second, focused more on Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden.
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There is clearly a different order of events. Read it again.
 
#77
#77
therealUT said:
For OE.

Best counter argument yet. However, simply because there is no record, in the Bible, that the Apostles forgave sinners does not mean it did not happen. Catholic bishops were forgiving sinners while Peter was still the See of Rome. Therefore, he, who was attendent to Jesus for before mentioned John passage and who was given the key to the kingdom of heaven along with the power to bind on earth and it shall be bound in heaven, condoned said act.

Unfortunately, you can't prove a negative. With the clarity of John 20, protestants are put in that position.
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:thumbsup:
 
#78
#78
What have we learned.....?

So, the next time someone asks you if you believe the Biblical story of creation, just remember the correct reply: "To which Biblical creation story do you refer?"
 
#79
#79
OrangeEmpire said:
The order of creation in Genesis 1 is: heaven and earth, light, vault of heaven (i.e., separation of earthly and heavenly waters), seas and dry land, plants, sun and stars, fish and birds, land animals, and last humans. This order is the same as that of the Persian Zend-Avesta, the sacred book of the Zoroastrians. Zoroastrianism was a powerful religion at about the time of the priestly writer of Genesis. However, Zoroaster probably lived about 1000 BCE, and the Yahwist writer would be unlikely to have had any contact with the Avesta. The original Avesta has not survived; modern adherents of Zoroastrianism use a version that has been recreated from fragments, commentaries, and hymns. The order of creation in Egyptian mythology, which would surely have been familiar to the priestly author, is ocean, sun, atmosphere, earth, and sky.

The order of creation in Genesis 2 is: heaven and earth, man, trees and the Garden of Eden, animals and birds, woman. In Genesis 1 the earth is first covered by water. In Genesis 2 the earth is first dry and barren. In Genesis 1 God creates by simple command: "And God said, let there be light, and there was light." In Genesis 2 God manufactures his creations from dirt or earth, walks in the garden in the cool of the evening, and cannot find the humans when they are hiding. Not only are the creation stories inconsistent, but the conceptions of the power of the deity are utterly different.
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In the first one, after man has been created, God gives him seed-bearing plants and fruit trees.

In the second, God gives man trees pleasing to the eye and good for food, or fruit trees. Also, about the animals and birds:

Now the Lord had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
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#80
#80
So.........

Not only is the story of creation recorded twice in Genesis, but shorter versions of it are recorded in Psalm 104 and Proverbs 8:22-31.

Bible stories are usually recorded to teach particular lessons rather than merely to provide facts and events. We can learn lessons about God the creator from each of these stories.
 
#81
#81
OrangeEmpire said:
So.........

Not only is the story of creation recorded twice in Genesis, but shorter versions of it are recorded in Psalm 104 and Proverbs 8:22-31.

Bible stories are usually recorded to teach particular lessons rather than merely to provide facts and events. We can learn lessons about God the creator from each of these stories.
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Don't get me wrong, I believe that everything in the Bible is there for a purpose, but I still see it as two different perspectives from Moses, but who knows, I could be wrong...or I could be right...:question:
 
#82
#82

Good stuff!


There are contradictions in the Bible. The details of afew of the errors and contradictions in the Bible are presented below. I find that its errors and contradictions make itmore credible rather than less. A contradiction indicates that one may be right and one may be wrong, orboth may be wrong, but both cannot be right. Therefore, it isfair to classify a contradiction as an error on the part of someone. Contradictions in two of the creation stories and in the two stories of Noah and the Flood are outlined. Other errors and contradictions from the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament make it clear that this issue must not be brushed aside. Here is a listing of some of the contradictions in the Bible, beginning with themost blatant and obvious:

I Samuel 17:50-51 says that David killed Goliath. II Samuel 21:19 says that Elhanan killed the same Goliath.

Matthew 28:2 and Mark 16:5 say that there was one "angel" or "young man" at the empty tomb on Easter morning. Luke 24:4 says that there were"two men."

In Matthew 28:7 and Mark 16:7, the women are told to tell the disciples to go to Galilee, where they will see the resurrected Christ. In Luke 24, Jesus appears to the disciples in Jerusalem and ascends to heaven from Bethany, whereas in Matthew 28, Jesus appears to ascend to heaven from a mountain in Galilee.

In the first two chapters in the Bible are found two contradictory accounts of creation. There are eight points of contrast between the accounts:

Genesis 2

The story comes from the southern storyteller of this and other stories.

It was first written about 1000 BCE (before the common era, same as BC)

The pre-creation situation is dry desert because that's what you find in southern Israel.

Creation of humanity precedes the creation of vegetation and animal life.

Man and woman, Adam and Eve, are created in two separate acts.

The Creator is called"the Lord God."

Creation is a hands on experience for the Lord God.

One important aspect of the concept of the Lord God presented in this story isfertility.

Genesis 1

This is the religious establishment's official authorized description of creation.

This description was first written about 500 BCE, in or around the time the Jews returned to Jerusalem from exile in Babylon.

The pre-creation situation is watery chaos because Babylon sat between the Tigris and Euphrates.

Order of creation is light, sky, sea, earth, vegetation, sun and moon and stars, birds, sea creatures, land animals, andlastly, humanity.

Creation of humanity is single act.

The Creator is called"God."

The Creator is present only through thecommands that cause the creative acts to occur.

One important aspect of the concept of God presented in this description isbringing order out of chaos.
In Genesis 6-8, there aretwo stories of the Great Flood, a common story in the literature of the Middle East. These stories have been intermingled in the text by the editors and redactors.

The older of the stories is found in Genesis 6:8-10; 7:1-10, 16c; 8:6-12, 20-22. This story comes from 1000 BCE and may have Egyptian influence.

The newer story is found in Genesis 6:9-22; 7:11-24; 8:1-5, 13-19; 9:1-17, and comes from 500 BCE with Babylonian influence. Here are six contradictions:

Old Flood Story

Human wickedness prompted"Yahweh" to wipe out descendants of Adam, along with animals, reptiles and birds, but not sea creatures.

No details are given about the size of the ark or what it's made from or how it's made.

Noah is instructed to take seven (7) pairs of edible animals on board, and one pair of animals that you don't eat.

The flood is a simple matter of too much rain falling for "forty days and forty nights," a Hebrew idiomatic phrase meaning "long enough.

The ark lands in an unknown location after Noah sends out a dove on three occasions to test for dry ground. All passengers disembark soon after, it seems.

Noah initiates a covenant-making ceremony with Yahweh. He builds an altar, kills one of every edible specie of animal and bird and cooks the meat on the altar. Yahweh is pleased and promises never again todestroy every living thing.

New Flood Story

"God" decided to kill everything under the heavens in which there is the "spirit of God," in response to humans filling the Earth with violence.

Details are given of the size and shape of the ark, along with specific directions as to how it is to be built and from what it is to be made.

Noah is instructed to take one pair of all animals on board, and is reminded to take food for all.

The flood is a complex matter involving the undoing of creation. The dome that divided the waters above the Earth from the waters below the Earth is severely threatened when water comes down from above, and comes up from below for one hundred fifty days.

The ark lands in the mountains of Upper Mesopotamia and Noah and his family and all the animalsremain in the ark for several months before disembarking.

God initiates a covenant-making ceremony with Noah. He gives the humans similar instructions to those he gave to the humans in the description of creation in the first chapter of Genesis. God gives the rainbow as a sign of his promise that he will never again drown every living thing.

Other contradictions could be listed but they aremore complex than these and require more background explanation. One such is the two burial places of Jacob in Genesis. An important point is that you don't have to believe everything in the Bible is literally true to have a solid faith. But if you want to talk about your faith with other people, you better know where you stand on Scripture.

This is one of the most contentious matter in the Christian faith right now. It has ripped Christian families asunder in the past twenty years. It is the centerpiece of many religious discussions.
 
#83
#83
OrangeEmpire said:

I Samuel 17:50-51 says that David killed Goliath. II Samuel 21:19 says that Elhanan killed the same Goliath.
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David killed Goliath the Philistine who was from Gath; Elhanan killed Goliath the Gittite during a Philistine battle. Two entirely different people.
 
#85
#85
Greatest thread ever!

*Comic Book Buy Voice*

And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew LAHMI THE BROTHER OF GOLIATH THE GITTITE, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam. 1 Chronicles 20:5
 
#86
#86
therealUT said:
I will let Jesus' words stand as they are.

Also, I do not need to further back up anything. I will again, let what I have posted, from Scripture, stand for all to read and come to their own conclusions.
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And again one section of John taken out of context being your basis says your argument is wrong.

But I will go with you to see this logic out. If Christ, before he died, gave the Disciples power to forgive sin, what was the point of his death and resurrection? Because if the power was given before all of these events, there would be no need for any of it. And again, if Christ is there to forgive only by praying, why bother going through a priest? I mean if I have a choice, why not go directly to the source? What is the point of the priest in asking for forgiveness if they are not needed?
 
#87
#87
therealUT said:
For OE.

Best counter argument yet. However, simply because there is no record, in the Bible, that the Apostles forgave sinners does not mean it did not happen. Catholic bishops were forgiving sinners while Peter was still the See of Rome. Therefore, he, who was attendent to Jesus for before mentioned John passage and who was given the key to the kingdom of heaven along with the power to bind on earth and it shall be bound in heaven, condoned said act.

Unfortunately, you can't prove a negative. With the clarity of John 20, protestants are put in that position.
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Without proof how can you say it DID happen? You are basing your argument on "just because it never said it didn't happen".

As for the binding on earth and heaven, what do you think it means and what is being bound here?

You still have John 20 as your only basis. Go to the original greek and read that whole chapter. Notice the word IF used there. It is not a command or entitling anyone to power. By your logic a priest has the power to tie the sins to that person (note second part). What if this person has already gone to Christ in prayer? Doesn't that pose a problem?

Again, man has no power to forgive sin in the level Christ does.
 
#88
#88
From the pub, all I can see of this thread title is "Homosexuality in Oregon". I come in here half expecting to see Milo coming out of the closet. :p

What I did find is a great thread which raises a lot of interesting points. Thanks for the excellent reading and food for thought. :salute:
 
#89
#89
As a former Christian myself, you all pose some very interesting questions. They have peeked my interest so much that I plan to attend service on Sunday. It's been over two years since I've picked up a bible. Divorce(my parents) really reared its ugly head when it distracted me from my faith. Something's been missing in my life for a while. When I go into the Coast Guard over the summer, I plan to restore my faith and happiness again. The happiest times of my life were when I was a devoted Christian.
 
#90
#90
Stunna, you don't have to wait until this summer to let God back into your life, all you have to do is ask Him back and He will be there. Do not be discouraged when things get tough.

Trials are not enemies of faith, but are opportunities to prove God's faithfulness.
 
#91
#91
StunnA N' Orange said:
As a former Christian myself, you all pose some very interesting questions. They have peeked my interest so much that I plan to attend service on Sunday. It's been over two years since I've picked up a bible. Divorce(my parents) really reared its ugly head when it distracted me from my faith. Something's been missing in my life for a while. When I go into the Coast Guard over the summer, I plan to restore my faith and happiness again. The happiest times of my life were when I was a devoted Christian.
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This could cause more discussion because of different denominations but you can't be a former Christian. If you "heard" and "believed" then your name is written in the Book of Life and won't be taken out.
Romans 10:5-13
Ephesians 1:13-14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having BELIEVED you were MARKED in Him with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession..."
 
#92
#92
JZVOL said:
This could cause more discussion because of different denominations but you can't be a former Christian. If you "heard" and "believed" then your name is written in the Book of Life and won't be taken out.
Romans 10:5-13
Ephesians 1:13-14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having BELIEVED you were MARKED in Him with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession..."
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I could not agree more.
 
#95
#95
Personally I am so happy for all of this discussion, I just wish we could meet weekly to discuss such things. The thing to keep in mind is that because we all interpret things differently we are going to have different views (Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Methodist etc.) but the main thing is that Christ has to be at the center. I think it is great to debate and discuss as long as it is Christ centered and based on the Word of God.

On a personal note this has helped me so much! I feel like I have been in a desert with my relationship with God. I still believe with everything inside of me that Christ is the only way to Heaven but I just haven't been talking with Him daily like I used to. When I pray I feel disconnected and I know I need to be in the Word yet I make excuses with myself to not read. If anyone will please pray for me I would appreciate it! I feel like talking about these things have challenged me to the point were I need to get closer to my Savior.
 
#96
#96
Before I go to bed I had one more thought. I know as a Christian I "walk by faith and not by sight". That being said I have often wondered why Christ didn't just lay everything out in black and white. Start from A then go to Z. After tonight I think for the first time time I've realized that if He did that there would be no discussions like this one. The only discussion would be if you believed or not. IMO these discussions are faith-affirming discussions and really spawn deep thought that is priceless.
 
#97
#97
JZVOL said:
This could cause more discussion because of different denominations but you can't be a former Christian. If you "heard" and "believed" then your name is written in the Book of Life and won't be taken out.
Romans 10:5-13
Ephesians 1:13-14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having BELIEVED you were MARKED in Him with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession..."
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You're correct. It was the wrong term to use in that instance. I was basically saying it's been almost two years since I've set a foot in God's temple. Mostly because I couldn't live a double life. I couldn't walk into his house while I was betraying his word during the week. But I'm in a better situation as of now. And I think it's time I take advantage of it. It just feels like something is missing currently. And I know what it is...but it's going to be hard to walking through those doors again.(Neglecting my faith before)
 
#98
#98
StunnA N' Orange said:
You're correct. It was the wrong term to use in that instance. I was basically saying it's been almost two years since I've set a foot in God's temple. Mostly because I couldn't live a double life. I couldn't walk into his house while I was betraying his word during the week. But I'm in a better situation as of now. And I think it's time I take advantage of it. It just feels like something is missing currently. And I know what it is...but it's going to be hard to walking through those doors again.(Neglecting my faith before)
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I would think that walking through those doors would be the easiest thing you could do.
 
#99
#99
You know I seldom drop in here at the poliforum. Sometimes a thread title just inexplicably draws one in...

where do y'all get this stuff...
 
#100
#100
CSpindizzy said:
And again one section of John taken out of context being your basis says your argument is wrong.

But I will go with you to see this logic out. If Christ, before he died, gave the Disciples power to forgive sin, what was the point of his death and resurrection? Because if the power was given before all of these events, there would be no need for any of it. And again, if Christ is there to forgive only by praying, why bother going through a priest? I mean if I have a choice, why not go directly to the source? What is the point of the priest in asking for forgiveness if they are not needed?
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It was after his death and resurrection. I am sure you knew that though...

As for the priest having the power to deny forgiveness, it is there. However, I have yet to hear of any circumstance (other than the story in Acts 8) in which a priest has exercised that power. The simple act of going to a priest to confess sins displays a magnitude of contrition for the overwhelming amount of sinners.

Also, feel free to pray directly to Christ for forgiveness. There is no Catholic teaching opposed to that. However, you also have the option to confess to a priest.

CSpindizzy said:
Without proof how can you say it DID happen? You are basing your argument on "just because it never said it didn't happen".

As for the binding on earth and heaven, what do you think it means and what is being bound here?

You still have John 20 as your only basis. Go to the original greek and read that whole chapter. Notice the word IF used there. It is not a command or entitling anyone to power. By your logic a priest has the power to tie the sins to that person (note second part). What if this person has already gone to Christ in prayer? Doesn't that pose a problem?

Again, man has no power to forgive sin in the level Christ does.
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I do not believe that the word IF would greatly change the implied empowerment Jesus bestowed on the Apostles. It just provides the Apostles with the discretion to absolve, retain, or defer the matter to Christ, another Apostle, or a later date.
 
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