Bible Topic Thread (merged)

[Lexvol]

Putting an effort to publish the Bible in a common tongue of the peasants was an achievement in itself

This had more to do with the spread of Reformation than any German Prince.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Exactly. And people assume that Protestantism solely originated from Luther. There were numerous breaks within the church since the beginning. It was only the western church that we associate with Catholics. So to claim that the Catholic Church is the original church or the foundation is inaccurate.

 

[therealUT]

Putting an effort to publish the Bible in a common tongue of the peasants was an achievement in itself since the Papacy would not make such an effort. And that silly Luther dared to get married as well. But when you are excommunicated, I guess you have been given a free pass to do whatever.

Interesting. Let's consider that monasteries were translating vernacular Bibles from the beginning. The Vulgate was originally translated in both Greek and Latin. Slavic Bibles date back to 1008, German Bibles date earlier than 1477, Dutch 1475, and Spanish as early as the seventh century, and your argument all of a sudden has no wings.

 

[therealUT]

The population was a slave to Catholicism, and could not escape their fiefdom because the government was so intwined with religion.

This view most definitely does not mesh with the historic facts that the German nobility pushed the "Reformation" so strongly. It was not the serfs that were pushing for an end to their servitude. This was the elite of German society (again, not the 'rabble' of the American Revolution) that wanted autonomy of their power.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Were those translations idely available? There is a difference in translations only available within monasteries and translations in local languages made available to all who did not speak Greek and Latin. My argument has wings. Your version of what I said does not. All of a sudden....

Still no response as to where it was said Catholics were false teachers? I'm still waiting. Or is all of a sudden your claim having no wings?

 

[CSpindizzy]

This view most definitely does not mesh with the historic facts that the German nobility pushed the "Reformation" so strongly. It was not the serfs that were pushing for an end to their servitude. This was the elite of German society (again, not the 'rabble' of the American Revolution) that wanted autonomy of their power.

It meshes with reality that the people themselves were the ones who chose to accept Luther's calls. They could have easily revolted or chose to not accept his words. Same with the local church leadership all over northern Europe. They were not nobility but went along with it.

 

[therealUT]

Were those translations idely available? There is a difference in translations only available within monasteries and translations in local languages made available to all who did not speak Greek and Latin. My argument has wings. Your version of what I said does not. All of a sudden....

Still no response as to where it was said Catholics were false teachers? I'm still waiting. Or is all of a sudden your claim having no wings?

No literature was widely available, especially to the poor, until post 1450. It was not the papacy that was keeping these books from being available...it was the lack of technology.

 

[therealUT]

It meshes with reality that the people themselves were the ones who chose to accept Luther's calls. They could have easily revolted or chose to not accept his words. Same with the local church leadership all over northern Europe. They were not nobility but went along with it.

Apparently, you are historically ignorant of the peasant uprisings and massacres that resulted in Germany over the forced removal of the Catholic Church from many of these Princes' domains.

 

[CSpindizzy]

All of those tucked away in the monasteries and abbeys? Schooling was tightly restricted. Learning was something that was restricted. Any ability to become adavanced and propel the ability to distribute the Bible was hindered not by technology but by man. The Church controlled learning and the ability to proliferate the Bible.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Apparently, you are historically ignorant of the peasant uprisings and massacres that resulted in Germany over the forced removal of the Catholic Church from many of these Princes' domains.

Actually I am not but wild claims by you are always expected. As a whole, the people sided with the decisions made by their local bishops and priests over their spiritual lifestyles. The people as a whole decided to remain locally loyal. Also keep in mind that this effect had a larger effect than just Germany but yet you only reference one nation which actually was not. Feel free to provide examples here.

 

[JZVOL]

1CO 9:5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?

If all the apostles had wives why wouldn't they all be living in sin, like a gay man who is not celibate?

Also Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law. So you can be pope as long as you are a widower?

 

[therealUT]

Actually I am not but wild claims by you are always expected. As a whole, the people sided with the decisions made by their local bishops and priests over their spiritual lifestyles. The people as a whole decided to remain locally loyal. Also keep in mind that this effect had a larger effect than just Germany but yet you only reference one nation which actually was not. Feel free to provide examples here.

Do you want to talk about the blood that was spilt in the Netherlands and Switzerland also? Or, maybe we could talk about the blood that Queen Elizabeth had spilt in England post Henry's split?

 

[CSpindizzy]

Wow. What a change. We were discussing Luther and Germany and Luther's direct and immediate effects and suddenly we've fast forwarded in history. Pay no attention to Bloody Mary as long as we're talking about that.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Seeing as how I cannot get a response to your ludicrous claim I keep asking you about, I take it you're admitting a lie. I will just go ahead and say it is hopeless to discuss anything with you due to the issues previously raised.

 

[The Dude]

Can't we all just get along?

 

[CSpindizzy]

Forgiveness of sins....

 

[Lexvol]

UT, I find a degree of irony in your posts given your libertarian views. The main theological point of reformation was that grace and scripture alone leads to salvation, and that people with free will could go to God directly in prayer without paying for penance.

I do not begrudge your beliefs, and have a profound respect for the Catholic church and its place in the Church Universal. However, the idea of a mortal man holding the keys to heaven was alive for one real reason and that was Apostolic succession. Apostolic succession was very poplular due to the mysticism of the age. Christians were simply looking for a direct link to Christ in human form, and for the first 300 years (and in some instances a little longer) after the ressurection people were expecting Christ to return in while they were alive.

Your reconciliation of the mysticism and the tyranny is your business. It just doesn't seem to jive with the rest of your world views. Both also discount the role of the Paraclete, and Its ability to individually minister to each human being without any sort of intermediary.

 

[therealUT]

I have never once stated that one cannot go directly to Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins.

Also, my libertarian views are not in conflict with my religious views.

 

[therealUT]

Less time in purgatory. Also, those who are privy to the word and teachings of Christ are held to a higher standard.

Before anyone asks, yes, this is supported by the Catholic Church.

I look at the current Catechism and don't see where anyone besides one who has received God's grace through Christ can even get to purgatory. And it seems Vatican II doesn't even view purgatory as a place but only a spiritual condition.

A link to back that up?

A lifetime of Catholic schooling, Mass attendance, consultations with Bishops, etc do plenty to reassure my faith.

But nothing based in a link of the Church? Nothing to prove to those who do not read your scriptures?

Here you go, straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (not exactly sure what you were looking at earlier.)

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches us that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence, they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse to enter it or to remain in it.
​

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nonetheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation.
​

Are you still going to rebut my knowledge of the Catholic Religion, CSpin? This is twice now you have incorrectly stated what the Church believes (once saying we worship Mary and second saying that those who do not believe in Christ cannot receive salvation.)

The only "false teacher" in this discussion seems to be you trying to bear false witness to Catholic Doctrine and Dogma.

 

[JZVOL]

the part starting with 847 is what a have a problem with. It's almost worthless to say why I don't agree with it other than I do not believe that and you do. I can accept that we'll agree to disagree.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Here you go, straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (not exactly sure what you were looking at earlier.)


Are you still going to rebut my knowledge of the Catholic Religion, CSpin? This is twice now you have incorrectly stated what the Church believes (once saying we worship Mary and second saying that those who do not believe in Christ cannot receive salvation.)

The only "false teacher" in this discussion seems to be you trying to bear false witness to Catholic Doctrine and Dogma.

So you say. I am taking my info directly from the source. I am taking it from where I said I did. So if you think I am incorrectly stating it you need to check your own source. This is repeatedly you telling me I am incorrect. If I am, I only take my info from the source. I think your lack of sources and proof have shown me you are not as astute on your beliefs as you claim.

And seeing your last little comment shows you still cannot show me where I said Catholics were "false teachers" as you seem to repeatedly claim I said. So when you can actually back up your claims, I'll take your claims as credible. Keep on making those statements as incorrect as they are. I will go ahead and say you are bearing false witness. I can only laugh at someone who claims I said something but doesn't have the courage or convictions to prove it.

 

[therealUT]

And seeing your last little comment shows you still cannot show me where I said Catholics were "false teachers" as you seem to repeatedly claim I said. So when you can actually back up your claims, I'll take your claims as credible. Keep on making those statements as incorrect as they are. I will go ahead and say you are bearing false witness. I can only laugh at someone who claims I said something but doesn't have the courage or convictions to prove it.

Just remember that even throughout the New Testament it says to be mindful of those preaching false doctrine. This is not directed at anyone or any group but those believing in the end times will know it will only get worse and the worst will come from within. The greatest thing Christians have to fear is from within with false teachers. There is only one hope and that is going directly to Christ and the Bible for the answers and proof. If you doubt the greater threat is from within read Paul's letters. Who were they addressing? The different churches themselves and the internal conflict from within.

Catholics as false teachers is a bit extreme.

And you completely ignored where I said my comments were not directed at anyone or any groups specifically. Please make sure you read all and take in what is said in entirety before saying I said something I actually did not.

Please. You were on a soapbox and, at least, implying that your arguments were putting the Catholic in his place. Your qualifier hardly changed what you intended.

You more than implied that Catholics were false teachers. At least be man enough to stand by it.

So you say. I am taking my info directly from the source. I am taking it from where I said I did. So if you think I am incorrectly stating it you need to check your own source. This is repeatedly you telling me I am incorrect. If I am, I only take my info from the source. I think your lack of sources and proof have shown me you are not as astute on your beliefs as you claim.

You are incorrect and I have just shown why by citing the exact place upon which you will find those words in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Do I need to photocopy it and paste the picture in here???

 

[CSpindizzy]

You more than implied that Catholics were false teachers. At least be man enough to stand by it.

You are incorrect and I have just shown why by citing the exact place upon which you will find those words in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Do I need to photocopy it and paste the picture in here???

I more than implied? I see you followed someone else's assumption and actually ran with it. I guess you as well missed the part where I said it was not directed at any group. Convenient how you missed that but yet again, misunderstood what someone else says. A pattern developing here. I merely referred to what Christ, Peter, and Paul all said. If you think I implied Catholics were false teachers, then take it up with those three as well. I love how you don't even read all of my post but somehow take what someone else wrote about me and attribute it to me. You are truly amazing.

As for source, my quote was word for word from the same source as you. Does that mean there is a contradiction? Does that mean you also have a problem with Vatican II? Again, don't take your frustrations out on me. Go question your church.

And to clear up just one more incorrect item you attributed to me, I never said you worship Mary. Again nice try in saying I said something I clearly did not. Please stop lying about what I said. And before you assume, please feel free to read the full post. If you still have questions, just ask. I am more than happy to clarify rather than have to try and repeat over and over something you took out of context.

 

[therealUT]

I know exactly where your words were from. They are contained in 161 of the Catechism. However, if you read the entire Catechism, you will find exactly how they explain that faith, that salvation, and the salvation for non-Christians. So, I have no problem with Vatican II. I have a problem with you contorting the views of Vatican II in order that you may discredit a religion you see as false.

I could care less if you qualified your statement with "not directed at any group." That is akin to someone starting off an insult with, "no offense, but." You are just trying to avoid the backlash.

You might not have said 'worship.' You said 'pray to.' There is no difference. So, in the future, say what you mean and mean what you say.

 

[JZVOL]

I know exactly where your words were from. They are contained in 161 of the Catechism. However, if you read the entire Catechism, you will find exactly how they explain that faith, that salvation, and the salvation for non-Christians. So, I have no problem with Vatican II. I have a problem with you contorting the views of Vatican II in order that you may discredit a religion you see as false.

I could care less if you qualified your statement with "not directed at any group." That is akin to someone starting off an insult with, "no offense, but." You are just trying to avoid the backlash.

You might not have said 'worship.' You said 'pray to.' There is no difference. So, in the future, say what you mean and mean what you say.

If praying are worshiping are the same thing then wouldn't that mean you do worship Mary or the other Saints since you pray to them?