Bible Topic Thread (merged)

#651
#651
LOL...I said a false religion? I speak very plainly. I see you have no issue with contorting. I could care less with what you believe. But when you claim I said something when I clearly didn't you are bearing false witness. I mean what I say. If you have issues with clarity, again, you don't have to lie about it. I never said worship. I never said false. Sorry I hit your sensitive area. Perhaps you are being convicted. In the future, try to make sure you understand what is being said before making such wild claims. Just as you say I contort, I say apply your own standard to yourself. Judge not or you will be judged by your own standards.
 
#653
#653
therealUT said:
I have never once stated that one cannot go directly to Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins.
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Your honor, I present post as evidence item 1. Had Mr. UT lived during the time of reformation he would have been Mr. Luther's right hand man.

What does the jury say: "guilty as charged".

I tell you what UT, this discussion as a hole is exactly why I am not pastoring today. I think that money, politics and the "Real Church" were never meant to be intermingled. One thing for sure, Catholic or Protestant, imo both began with an earnest mission to reach the "unreached". Unfortunately the evolution of that mission has been tainted by politics and greed on both sides of the isle.

Imperfect man= imperfect church.

I just don't think that God intended to EVER have a professional clergy that made a living off of people's offering to Him/Her/It.
 
#654
#654
JZVOL said:
If praying are worshiping are the same thing then wouldn't that mean you do worship Mary or the other Saints since you pray to them?
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How many times do I have to repeat that we do not pray to Mary or the Saints? We ask Mary, the Saints, our fellow brothers and sisters to pray for us. Maybe this will help:
Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death. Amen.
Click to expand...
I confess to almighty God,
and to you,
my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary,
ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you,
my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.
Click to expand...

 
#655
#655
This passage of scripture I would treat in such a way as to maintain the superiority of the other and higher sanctity - preferring self control and virginity to marriage. However I would by no means prohibit the latter. For my hostility is directed against those who are for destroying the God of marriage, not against those who follow afer chastity.

Tertullian
 
#656
#656
Lexvol said:
Your honor, I present post as evidence item 1. Had Mr. UT lived during the time of reformation he would have been Mr. Luther's right hand man.

What does the jury say: "guilty as charged".

I tell you what UT, this discussion as a hole is exactly why I am not pastoring today. I think that money, politics and the "Real Church" were never meant to be intermingled. One thing for sure, Catholic or Protestant, imo both began with an earnest mission to reach the "unreached". Unfortunately the evolution of that mission has been tainted by politics and greed on both sides of the isle.

Imperfect man= imperfect church.

I just don't think that God intended to EVER have a professional clergy that made a living off of people's offering to Him/Her/It.
Click to expand...

Wait a second that "preacher" on tv the other day said I would become wealthy if I sent him my entire life savings, is that not true ?!?!
 
#657
#657
therealUT said:
How many times do I have to repeat that we do not pray to Mary or the Saints? We ask Mary, the Saints, our fellow brothers and sisters to pray for us. Maybe this will help:


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Click to expand...

where in the heck does it say in the Bible to ask dead men and women to pray for us?

Did Jesus ever say to ask dead Saints to pray for us?
 
#658
#658
JZVOL said:
Wait a second that "preacher" on tv the other day said I would become wealthy if I sent him my entire life savings, is that not true ?!?!
Click to expand...

You should try it and report back. If you split your cash between that and the Powerball surely one will hit.
 
#659
#659
Haha, ever seen My Blue Heaven with Steve Martin? I think that is the movie where is a tv preacher type, very funny.
 
#660
#660
therealUT said:
How many times do I have to repeat that we do not pray to Mary or the Saints? We ask Mary, the Saints, our fellow brothers and sisters to pray for us. Maybe this will help:
Click to expand...

As you say there is no difference between praying and asking. This little segment here sounds similar to the Lord's PRAYER. You are asking the dead for assistance.

Here are two quotes of early church leaders. Feel free to argue their logic.

We speak of Paradise, the place of divine bliss appointed to receive the spirits of the saints. There, the saints are cut off from the knowledge of this world by that fiery zone as by a sort of enclosure.

Tertullian

It is clear that those who make prayers to the dead...do not act as becomes men. They will suffer punishment for their impiety and guilt. Rebelling against God the Father of the hman race they have undertaken unforgivable rites. They have violated every sacred law.

Lactantius
 
#661
#661
Here is one on salvation AFTER death:

There is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, unless it believes while it is still in the flesh. For it is an established truth that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges.

Tertullian
 
#663
#663
CSpindizzy said:
Here is one on salvation AFTER death:

There is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, unless it believes while it is still in the flesh. For it is an established truth that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges.

Tertullian
Click to expand...
Feel free to continue to quote a man who, according to Saint Augustine and Saint Ambrose, renounced his departure from the Catholic Church and came back in to full communion with the Church.

While you are at it, feel free to quote anything from Voltaire as it pertains to the Catholic Church. Just make sure you qualify it by stating the he was a daily Communicant in the Catholic Church.
 
#664
#664
JZVOL said:
the part starting with 847 is what a have a problem with. It's almost worthless to say why I don't agree with it other than I do not believe that and you do. I can accept that we'll agree to disagree.
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It becomes puzzling how they might know God but not Christ. In today's society it is difficult to hear one without the other.
 
#665
#665
therealUT said:
Feel free to continue to quote a man who, according to Saint Augustine and Saint Ambrose, renounced his departure from the Catholic Church and came back in to full communion with the Church.

While you are at it, feel free to quote anything from Voltaire as it pertains to the Catholic Church. Just make sure you qualify it by stating the he was a daily Communicant in the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...

And that makes his statements all the more ironic doesn't it? Strange that someone who was in the church was making such statements.
 
#666
#666
It is likely enough that they themselves are now lamenting in Hades and repenting with a repentance that is too late.

Justin Martyr
 
#667
#667
therealUT said:
Feel free to continue to quote a man who, according to Saint Augustine and Saint Ambrose, renounced his departure from the Catholic Church and came back in to full communion with the Church.
Click to expand...

Was it faith or fear that brought him back? We will never really know.
 
#668
#668
If Tertullian did return to the fold so to speak, why does he not receive the same recognition others of his stature do? No canonization or saitnhood?
 
#669
#669
"Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the Person of Christ manifested in His mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" He did for His lowly servant and through her for all human beings. The second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused."
- from the Catechism of the Catholic Church; 2675.
 
#670
#670
Throwing out another issue - is Sunday the Sabbath? Many think so and many think Christians now have their own Sabbath.
 
#671
#671
Salvation:

A man cannot otherwise enter into the kingdom of God than by the name of His beloved Son. --Hermas

Open your heart to the Lord believing that you can be saved by no other name than by His great and glorious name. --Hermas

But there is no other way than this: to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins, and for the rest, to live sinless lives. --Justin Martyr

If you repent of your sins and recognize Him to be Christ and observe his commandments then you may assert [that you have done no wrong]. For as I have said before, remission of sins will be yours.--Justin Martyr

No man can know God without both the goodwill of the Father and the agency of the Son. --Iraneus

It is impossible to reach the Father except by His Son Jesus Christ. --Cyprian

By believing in Him you will live. But by disbelieving you will be punished. For "he that is disobedient to the Son will not see life". --Apostolic Constitutions
 
#672
#672
Does anyone body know who the authors of Maccabees, Wisdom and Sirach?

Why do Catholics view them as the word of God?
 
#673
#673
Both Maccabees have unknown authors. We consider them more historical than canon. The author of Wisdom is supposedly Solomon. Sirach was written by Jeshua ben Sira. These are pre-Christ.
 
#674
#674
Then why would catholics hold on to an idea of purgatory after Christ's death on the cross? That doesn't make sense to me.

Who is Jeshua?
 
#675
#675
Another item of interest is reading the book of Jude and noting two other books that fail to become acknowledged as canon: Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses.
 
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