Bible Topic Thread (merged)

#126
#126
This is for UT and before I ask them I am not trying to be rude but asking a very real question. You say we have the option to go to Christ to ask for forgiveness of our sins and a priest to either forgive us or confirm that god has heard me and does forgive me. I personally do not need another sinful mortal man to tell me I'm forgiven. You said earlier that a protestant is left wondering if Christ hears his prayer but based on Scripture I know he has. His purpose of dying on the cross was to forgive me of my sin and He hears my prayers because of the Holy Spirit that lives in me when I accept Christ. A priest does not get a better Holy Spirit or a direct line simply becuase they are a priest, but the same one I have, because both of our sins are the same and need to be equally forgiven.

Here are the questions I have.

If a man becomes a priest and has the authority to forgive as you say, if he leaves, or say commits a sin and is kicked out, do they lose that power?

If I become a priest tomorrow am I able to forgive sin? Yet yesterday I was not?
 
#127
#127
#128
#128
JZVOL said:
This is for UT and before I ask them I am not trying to be rude but asking a very real question. You say we have the option to go to Christ to ask for forgiveness of our sins and a priest to either forgive us or confirm that god has heard me and does forgive me. I personally do not need another sinful mortal man to tell me I'm forgiven. You said earlier that a protestant is left wondering if Christ hears his prayer but based on Scripture I know he has. His purpose of dying on the cross was to forgive me of my sin and He hears my prayers because of the Holy Spirit that lives in me when I accept Christ. A priest does not get a better Holy Spirit or a direct line simply becuase they are a priest, but the same one I have, because both of our sins are the same and need to be equally forgiven.

Here are the questions I have.

If a man becomes a priest and has the authority to forgive as you say, if he leaves, or say commits a sin and is kicked out, do they lose that power?

If I become a priest tomorrow am I able to forgive sin? Yet yesterday I was not?
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What does fondling young boys do to one's ability to forgive? The poor sinner awaiting forgiveness has no idea that he is seeking forgiveness from a pedophile.
 
#129
#129
BigPapaVol said:
What does fondling young boys do to one's ability to forgive? The poor sinner awaiting forgiveness has no idea that he is seeking forgiveness from a pedophile.
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My only question about a priest leaving his post is does he lose his ability to forgive me of my sins or confirm that God that has forgiven me of my sins? In essence he has gone from clergy to non-clergy so in the Catholic faith does he then have to go to a preist since he is no longer one himself?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that second part.
 
#130
#130
JZVOL said:
Here are the questions I have.

If a man becomes a priest and has the authority to forgive as you say, if he leaves, or say commits a sin and is kicked out, do they lose that power?
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If a priest loses his ordination, then he cannot forgive sins. However, the sins he has forgiven, until that time, are still forgiven. Also, priests sin, just as the Apostles sinned.
JZVOL said:
If I become a priest tomorrow am I able to forgive sin? Yet yesterday I was not?
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Yes. Just as the Apostles were able to forgive sins after Jesus breathed upon them and empowered them to. Prior to that day, they were not empowered to forgive sins. That moment and onward, they were.

People can argue against this all they want. However, there is little to no Biblical argument against it. Also, consider the historical setting. The four Gospels that appear in the New Testament were not recorded until at least 60 A.D. Some not until the late 70s. Peter had been the Bishop of Jerusalem from 32 A.D. onward to around 50 A.D. when he departed for Rome. There he was the Bishop of Rome. New Bishops were being ordained during this entire period, ordained with the power to forgive sins. If this was seen as an antithesis to the teachings of Jesus, don't you believe it would have been addressed in these Gospels? Instead, you have Catholic Bishops and Popes, as well as Apostles, writing epistles about the authority bestowed upon them to forgive sins from the Gospel of John (70+ A.D.), the Epistles of Pope Clement I (90 A.D.), Tertullian (140 A.D.), St. Ambrose (200 A.D.), Augustine (400 A.D.), and on through two millenia.

Considering that the Bible did not even exist until 382 A.D., and the selection and list of books that would be represented in the Bible was by a council commissioned by the Catholic Church (the institution that now for 350 years had authorized the Sacrament of Reconciliation), I find it humorous that people even try to use the Bible to denounce the Catholic Church.

The most rationale argument that anyone can use against the Catholic Church would have to use evidence found from historical texts and gospels that are not contained in the book commissioned by the the Catholic Church. As the members who participated in the Council of Rome took great care to choose New Testament Scriptures that would support the Dogma of the Catholic Church.
 
#131
#131
JZVOL said:
My only question about a priest leaving his post is does he lose his ability to forgive me of my sins or confirm that God that has forgiven me of my sins? In essence he has gone from clergy to non-clergy so in the Catholic faith does he then have to go to a preist since he is no longer one himself?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that second part.
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An ordained priest cannot forgive himself. A 'retired' priest can still grant reconciliation for sins. An 'ex'-priest cannot. As one's ordination has never been repealed, while the others has.
 
#132
#132
therealUT said:
If a priest loses his ordination, then he cannot forgive sins. However, the sins he has forgiven, until that time, are still forgiven. Also, priests sin, just as the Apostles sinned.

Yes. Just as the Apostles were able to forgive sins after Jesus breathed upon them and empowered them to. Prior to that day, they were not empowered to forgive sins. That moment and onward, they were.

People can argue against this all they want. However, there is little to no Biblical argument against it. Also, consider the historical setting. The four Gospels that appear in the New Testament were not recorded until at least 60 A.D. Some not until the late 70s. Peter had been the Bishop of Jerusalem from 32 A.D. onward to around 50 A.D. when he departed for Rome. There he was the Bishop of Rome. New Bishops were being ordained during this entire period, ordained with the power to forgive sins. If this was seen as an antithesis to the teachings of Jesus, don't you believe it would have been addressed in these Gospels? Instead, you have Catholic Bishops and Popes, as well as Apostles, writing epistles about the authority bestowed upon them to forgive sins from the Gospel of John (70+ A.D.), the Epistles of Pope Clement I (90 A.D.), Tertullian (140 A.D.), St. Ambrose (200 A.D.), Augustine (400 A.D.), and on through two millenia.

Considering that the Bible did not even exist until 382 A.D., and the selection and list of books that would be represented in the Bible was by a council commissioned by the Catholic Church (the institution that now for 350 years had authorized the Sacrament of Reconciliation), I find it humorous that people even try to use the Bible to denounce the Catholic Church.

The most rationale argument that anyone can use against the Catholic Church would have to use evidence found from historical texts and gospels that are not contained in the book commissioned by the the Catholic Church. As the members who participated in the Council of Rome took great care to choose New Testament Scriptures that would support the Dogma of the Catholic Church.
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That just seems like a very convenient arguement to me. Too many pieces of the puzzle having to fit if you will. When the priest is ordained (or whatever term Catholics use if that isn't correct) what is it that is given to him and from whom in order to forgive sin? Is it because Jesus gave it to the Apostles who gave it to "Jon" who gave it to "Bill". I guess I'm asking is it a passed down thing?


That is where the conflict is to me. I believe and have been taught that the Apostles were given authority by Jesus directly to perform miracles in Jesus' name in order to spread His message. I don't believe man to man can give this authority.
 
#133
#133
therealUT said:
An ordained priest cannot forgive himself. A 'retired' priest can still grant reconciliation for sins. An 'ex'-priest cannot. As one's ordination has never been repealed, while the others has.
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Ah I gotcha! Who then would an ordained priest go to?
 
#135
#135
JZVOL said:
That just seems like a very convenient arguement to me. Too many pieces of the puzzle having to fit if you will. When the priest is ordained (or whatever term Catholics use if that isn't correct) what is it that is given to him and from whom in order to forgive sin? Is it because Jesus gave it to the Apostles who gave it to "Jon" who gave it to "Bill". I guess I'm asking is it a passed down thing?


That is where the conflict is to me. I believe and have been taught that the Apostles were given authority by Jesus directly to perform miracles in Jesus' name in order to spread His message. I don't believe man to man can give this authority.
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Yes, this comes back to the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" being given to Simon Peter (not the inanimate rock) and the authority to "bind and loose" on earth and it will be upheld in heaven.

If you take the first step and read John 20 for what it is (because it is right there), and believe that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to his Apostles, then why would you think Jesus would just provide that act of grace to less than one generation of sinners?
 
#136
#136
therealUT said:
Yes, this comes back to the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" being given to Simon Peter (not the inanimate rock) and the authority to "bind and loose" on earth and it will be upheld in heaven.

If you take the first step and read John 20 for what it is (because it is right there), and believe that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to his Apostles, then why would you think Jesus would just provide that act of grace to less than one generation of sinners?
Click to expand...

I have some thoughts but will reserve them till I can get to my Bible and will get back to you (at work).

But I just don't believe another sinner can give another sinner the ability to forgive sin or perform miracles. Again I have the same Holy Spirit as every other Christian.
 
#137
#137
JZVOL said:
I have some thoughts but will reserve them till I can get to my Bible and will get back to you (at work).

But I just don't believe another sinner can give another sinner the ability to forgive sin or perform miracles. Again I have the same Holy Spirit as every other Christian.
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Yet, you have no problem with a sinner being able to baptize another, and thus, forgive their sins?
 
#138
#138
therealUT said:
Yes, this comes back to the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" being given to Simon Peter (not the inanimate rock) and the authority to "bind and loose" on earth and it will be upheld in heaven.

If you take the first step and read John 20 for what it is (because it is right there), and believe that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to his Apostles, then why would you think Jesus would just provide that act of grace to less than one generation of sinners?
Click to expand...

Again I don't have my Bible so I am not reading it right now but couldn't the "keys" to Heaven refer to Jesus and the Holy Spirit as the keys and not actually giving the authority to forgive and not forgive sin?
 
#139
#139
therealUT said:
Yet, you have no problem with a sinner being able to baptize another, and thus, forgive their sins?
Click to expand...

My pastor is not forgiving me of my sins. It is a symbol of me putting away my old life and my new life beginning. The act of baptism does not save one but the believing that saves. It is an outward expression of my faith.
 
#140
#140
therealUT said:
Yet, you have no problem with a sinner being able to baptize another, and thus, forgive their sins?
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Baptism has nothing to do with forgiveness. It is merely a symbolic gesture that Christians undergo as an act of obedience and as public profession of faith.
 
#141
#141
JZVOL said:
Again I don't have my Bible so I am not reading it right now but couldn't the "keys" to Heaven refer to Jesus and the Holy Spirit as the keys and not actually giving the authority to forgive and not forgive sin?
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Not how it is written. The only coherent way in which one could run with it is to say that Jesus bestowed that power to a single rock.

JZVOL said:
My pastor is not forgiving me of my sins. It is a symbol of me putting away my old life and my new life beginning. The act of baptism does not save one but the believing that saves. It is an outward expression of my faith.
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So, your pastor doesn't say, "I baptize you, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," or something very, very close to resembling those same lines. Again, my mom was raised Southern Baptist, my wife is, and I have been to countless protestant baptisms.

So, how is that so philosophically different from a priest saying "I forgive your sins, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

If a sinner has the authority to perform and say the former, then what is the problem with the sinner having the authority to perform and say the latter.
 
#142
#142
BigPapaVol said:
Baptism has nothing to do with forgiveness. It is merely a symbolic gesture that Christians undergo as an act of obedience and as public profession of faith.
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Baptism has everything to do with forgiveness. One, it clears you of your original sin. Two, it clears you of any and all particular sins you have committed up to that point in your life.
 
#143
#143
therealUT said:
Not how it is written. The only coherent way in which one could run with it is to say that Jesus bestowed that power to a single rock.


So, your pastor doesn't say, "I baptize you, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," or something very, very close to resembling those same lines. Again, my mom was raised Southern Baptist, my wife is, and I have been to countless protestant baptisms.

So, how is that so philosophically different from a priest saying "I forgive your sins, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

If a sinner has the authority to perform and say the former, then what is the problem with the sinner having the authority to perform and say the latter.
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Again i don't have my Bible with me so I thought that could be the case.

I can see how you would make that connection but again the pastor is not forgiving me of anything. He is simply saying I baptize in the name of F,S&HS. It is again outward to let everyone know who your savior (Jesus) is and who you belong to.
 
#145
#145
JZVOL said:
Again i don't have my Bible with me so I thought that could be the case.

I can see how you would make that connection but again the pastor is not forgiving me of anything. He is simply saying I baptize in the name of F,S&HS. It is again outward to let everyone know who your savior (Jesus) is and who you belong to.
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Your pastor is performing the work of God, and explicitly granting forgiveness for someones sin. There is very little difference, except the fact that your pastor is in fact forgiving a much larger debt (original sin) than a Catholic priest is during confession (particular sin.)
 
#146
#146
therealUT said:
Baptism has everything to do with forgiveness. One, it clears you of your original sin. Two, it clears you of any and all particular sins you have committed up to that point in your life.
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No. It is by faith I'm saved not by works. I can do nothing to be saved other than "hear" and "believe". See the Ephesians verses I refrenced earlier.

for instance if I hear the Word out in the jungle from a friend and as we are on our way back home I die for some reason and haven't been baptized I am still saved and will still be in Heaven. Ie Jesus on the Cross saving the thief that didn't mock him. He wasn't baptized but Christ said today you will be with my Father in paradise(also another example of no purgatory).
 
#148
#148
JZVOL said:
Eph 1:13-14
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I will see your Ephesians
In him also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God's possession, to the praise of his glory.

Eph 1:13-14
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And I will raise you a James
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:17
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However, back to your point about believing before Baptism. This is much the same as also being able to pray to the Lord for forgiveness instead of going to a priest. Yet, you still make sure you get Baptized by the pastor, don't you? Why? Because it provides that assurance.
 
#149
#149
There is only one Person Who can forgive your sin. There is only one Person Who paid for your sin. There is only one Person Who is your Mediator, and there is only one Person Who can give you eternal life. That Person is the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

"Jesus saith unto him (or you), I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1st John 5:13)
 
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