Bible Topic Thread (merged)

#101
#101
CSpindizzy said:
As for the binding on earth and heaven, what do you think it means and what is being bound here?
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"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Mt 16:18-19
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The Aramaic word kepa meaning rock and tranliterated into Greek as Kephas is the name by which Peter is called in the Pauline letters except in Gal 2,7-8. It is translated as Petros in Jn 1, 42. The presumed original Aramaic of Jesus' statement would have been, in English, "You are The Rock and upon this rock I will build my church." The Greek text probably means the same, for the difference in gender between the masculine noun petros, the disciple's new name, and the feminine noun petra may be due simply to the unsuitability of using a feminine noun as the proper name of a male. Although the two words were generally used with slightly different nuances, they were also used interchangeably with the same meaning, "rock." Church: this word occurs in the gospels only here and in 18, 17. There are several possibilities for an Aramaic original. Jesus' church means the community that he will gather and that, like a building, will have Peter as its solid foundation. That function of Peter consists in his being witness to Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of the living God. The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it: the netherworld is conceived of as a walled city whose gates will not close in upon the church of Jesus, i.e., it will not be overcome by the power of death.

The keys to the kingdom of heaven: the image of the keys is probably drawn from Is 22, 15-25, where Eliakim who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given "the keys of the house of David," which he authoritatively "opens" and "shuts".

There are many instances in rabbinic literature of the binding-loosing imagery. Of the several meanings given there to the metaphor, two are of special importance here: the giving of authoritative teaching, and the lifting or imposing of the ban of excommunication. It is disputed whether the image of the keys and that of binding and loosing are different metaphors meaning the same thing. In any case, the promise of the keys is given to Peter alone. In 18, 18 all the disciples are given the power of binding and loosing, but the context of that verse suggests the that there the power of excommunication alone is intended. That the keys are those to the kingdom of heaven and that Peter's exercise of authority in the church on earth will be confirmed in heaven show an intimate connection between, but not and identification of, the church and the kingdom of heaven.
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Sufficient?
 
#103
#103
therealUT said:
I do not believe that the word IF would greatly change the implied empowerment Jesus bestowed on the Apostles. It just provides the Apostles with the discretion to absolve, retain, or defer the matter to Christ, another Apostle, or a later date.
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Again, go to the original Greek and see the true meaning. Christ was very specific between using IF and giving concise and specific instructions. I can forgive your sin against me. But that won't get you to Heaven or be a replacement for forgiveness from Christ. In the Lord's Prayer it says forgive us our transgressions as we forgive our transgressors. It goes with the whole notion of doing unto others. It does not give man the power to forgive sins on the level of Christ.
 
#104
#104
CSpindizzy said:
Actually no. Considering that there are two different words being used to define ROCK and that there is NO proof that Matthew was written in Aramaic, the explanation is insufficient and again taken out of context.
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This is me laughing.
 
#105
#105
CSpindizzy said:
Again, go to the original Greek and see the true meaning. Christ was very specific between using IF and giving concise and specific instructions. I can forgive your sin against me. But that won't get you to Heaven or be a replacement for forgiveness from Christ. In the Lord's Prayer it says forgive us our transgressions as we forgive our transgressors. It goes with the whole notion of doing unto others. It does not give man the power to forgive sins on the level of Christ.
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This is me laughing at you.
 
#106
#106
Laugh as you may. It is fact that this was never Aramaic in origin. Somehow an entire group of people have assumed that a book written in Greek somehow conveys a word in Aramaic. Even in the Greek the word rock goes from masculine to feminine. The notion of Peter as the sole head of the church is Biblically wrong plain and simple.
 
#107
#107
I will continue to laugh. I guess in your world you believe that Jesus turned to Simon and called him Petros and then picked up a rock (petra) and said that he would build his church upon it. So, I would imagine that whatever church you attend simply does not have Christ's authority to be one of his churches, since it obviously is not built at said geographic location.

I would also go on to assume that you believe Jesus had a fondness for pet rocks. Since, he obviously continued to talk to the rock, not Simon Peter, and gave this rock the keys to heaven and the power to bind and loose on earth and in heaven. That is one powerful rock!

This is why I laugh.
 
#109
#109
Good, I will be humbled in purgatory. Your mind will be blown by the realization that God does a little bit more than play with mud and clay, and talk to rocks.

Again, I continue laughing.
 
#110
#110
therealUT said:
I will continue to laugh. I guess in your world you believe that Jesus turned to Simon and called him Petros and then picked up a rock (petra) and said that he would build his church upon it. So, I would imagine that whatever church you attend simply does not have Christ's authority to be one of his churches, since it obviously is not built at said geographic location.

I would also go on to assume that you believe Jesus had a fondness for pet rocks. Since, he obviously continued to talk to the rock, not Simon Peter, and gave this rock the keys to heaven and the power to bind and loose on earth and in heaven. That is one powerful rock!

This is why I laugh.
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I laugh because you are prone to exaggeration and assumption. You have no idea what I believe but somehow care to make such judgment. It's called bedrock or foundation. Peter's faith and commitment for one is what the church is built on. Why did Matthew use a completely different word right after the previously stated rock? If he is THE rock why are the words different? And do please explain where Aramaic explanations came to be since the book was written in Greek.
 
#111
#111
therealUT said:
Good, I will be humbled in purgatory. Your mind will be blown by the realization that God does a little bit more than play with mud and clay, and talk to rocks.

Again, I continue laughing.
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Good. Keep laughing. Keep judging people as you do with no knowledge of them. Keep assuming you think you know what others believe. I laugh because you do not bother checking facts before making assumptions.

I laugh because John Ratzinger makes a decision and suddenly frees the souls of children from limbo. It is amazing that the decision of one man, a mere mortal, can somehow free millions of babies and children from purgatory.
 
#112
#112
CSpindizzy said:
I laugh because you are prone to exaggeration and assumption. You have no idea what I believe but somehow care to make such judgment. It's called bedrock or foundation. Peter's faith and commitment for one is what the church is built on. Why did Matthew use a completely different word right after the previously stated rock? If he is THE rock why are the words different? And do please explain where Aramaic explanations came to be since the book was written in Greek.
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I have deduced, through reason, that you believe that Jesus had a conversation with a rock. Jesus gave immense power to the rock. The images swimming in my head right now parallel that of a toddler giving almighty power to a block with letters on all sides. This image is funny. Hence, my laughter.

Let's just put it this way. I would not belittle my God, the way that you have in your assumption due to Petros and petra, simply to try and counter a Christian truth that has been witnessed to for over 2,000 years (has only been rebutted for a little over 500.)

However, in case you have forgotten. This is me laughing at you and your toddler god.
 
#113
#113
CSpindizzy said:
I laugh because John Ratzinger makes a decision and suddenly frees the souls of children from limbo. It is amazing that the decision of one man, a mere mortal, can somehow free millions of babies and children from purgatory.
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I would rather believe in a mortal freeing children from purgatory than a god who plays with mud and clay and bestows profound power to pebbles.
 
#114
#114
Well your reason is skewed and needs a great deal of help. Since I never gave you any info to base that on and never stated that is what I believe, I find it laughable you'd go out on a limb and reason that. Since Jesus called Peter rock, does that also mean he saw Peter as an inanimate object? Or when it was mentioned the rocks cry out that would be far fetched as well?

So you believe that Peter was the sole basis of the Church? And he alone has the power to do anything? And a Christian truth? Strange but even early fathers of the Church have disagreed. Quite arrogant to think your line of thought is the sole one and has been for centuries. Read up on early Christian leaders.

I laugh at how you take a snippet and run with it not bothering to read the original text and taking the whole writing in context. Keep going to your priest hoping he will save you. Christ is the only way to the father. He repeatedly states that. No matter how many trips to confession, it does not change.I laugh at the fact that you feel the need to run to a sinner to ask for forgiveness of sins while anyone else can just get on their knees in the presence of anyone and ask Jesus directly.
 
#115
#115
therealUT said:
I would rather believe in a mortal freeing children from purgatory than a god who plays with mud and clay and bestows profound power to pebbles.
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Who believes that? I laugh because that can be your only reply. Keep assuming. Don't forget when the rocks cry out.
 
#117
#117
When you read subsequent books of the New Testament outside of the 4 Gospels, do you see any reference to Peter being head of the church and people waiting on him or going to him for a final sayso?

Read Eph 2:20. Paul basically says Christ is the cornerstone and the prophets and apostles are the foundation. Read before and after and we are all fellow citizens with these saints. There is no hierarchy or priority.
 
#118
#118
JZVOL said:
Personally I am so happy for all of this discussion, I just wish we could meet weekly to discuss such things. The thing to keep in mind is that because we all interpret things differently we are going to have different views (Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Methodist etc.) but the main thing is that Christ has to be at the center. I think it is great to debate and discuss as long as it is Christ centered and based on the Word of God.

On a personal note this has helped me so much! I feel like I have been in a desert with my relationship with God. I still believe with everything inside of me that Christ is the only way to Heaven but I just haven't been talking with Him daily like I used to. When I pray I feel disconnected and I know I need to be in the Word yet I make excuses with myself to not read. If anyone will please pray for me I would appreciate it! I feel like talking about these things have challenged me to the point were I need to get closer to my Savior.
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Amen Brother!
 
#119
#119
Going back to an earlier post where you claim Paul says sex is immoral...where is that again? I don't see him saying it is immoral. Unless it was in Aramaic.

Look at 1 Cor 7....go to the first part. He says in 5 that it is part of the marriage and not not deprive each other. Depriving is more likely to lead to temptation and sin. Basically it comes to priorities and NOT instruction to become abstinent.
 
#120
#120
CSpindizzy said:
Going back to an earlier post where you claim Paul says sex is immoral...where is that again? I don't see him saying it is immoral. Unless it was in Aramaic.

Look at 1 Cor 7....go to the first part. He says in 5 that it is part of the marriage and not not deprive each other. Depriving is more likely to lead to temptation and sin. Basically it comes to priorities and NOT instruction to become abstinent.
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Just to avoid confusion, you are talking to therealUT aren't you?
 
#121
#121
Remember He is the vine and we are the branches. Does this mean we pray to and believe in a plant? Are we literally outgrowth from a bush? As for bearing fruit does this mean we sprout apples from our fingers? No. Peter's faith, his boldness, his acquired knowledge, and his commitment is the bedrock, the foundation that the church is built on. Christ mentions this same word petras in his sermon on building the house upon the rock and the one upon the sand. Both in Matt 7:24-27 and in Luke 6:43-49 the same greek word is used and both refer to the foundation. Both instances have Christ saying that those who hear and act and believe is like the man who built on the rock. Back our issue in question Peter is the same man used in that example and so are we if we act in the same manner. Christ made it corporate not specific. He said IF ANYONE.
 
#124
#124
That is the dilemma Christianity faces. There are those who take parts to their liking and make it gospel...excuse the pun. There are issues we can all disagree with that are minor and not relative to us going to Heaven or not and there are those issues that are of prime importance that people get behind the pulpit and deceive many leading them down the wrong path. I personally have issues with pastors who get up behind the pulpit and start injecting personal opinion without Scripture to back it up as fact. Chalk it up to all of these denominations and even factions within denominations.
 
#125
#125
CSpindizzy said:
That is the dilemma Christianity faces. There are those who take parts to their liking and make it gospel...excuse the pun. There are issues we can all disagree with that are minor and not relative to us going to Heaven or not and there are those issues that are of prime importance that people get behind the pulpit and deceive many leading them down the wrong path. I personally have issues with pastors who get up behind the pulpit and start injecting personal opinion without Scripture to back it up as fact. Chalk it up to all of these denominations and even factions within denominations.
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Well said!!! I'm going to throw in a few thoughts on what has been said. There are many things (minor) that can been debated in Christianity but certain principles that can't be waiverd on (major).

I could not agree more that no priest or pastor should be called father as there is only one Father. Anything that takes the focus off of Christ is idolatry (not sports etc) like going to a priest to confirm one's forgiveness of sin. It is removing the focus from Christ and putting it elswhere (the priest).

I will argue again that there is no purgatory. When Christ died he went to the underworld and took the "sleeping" saints from the Paradise section and brought them with Him to Heaven. There is a great book with diagrams about this by clarence Larkin. Paradise is now empty as Christ has emptied it. Can't remember the scripture but the Bible states that to be absent of the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. The reason we can enter Heaven upon death is because Christ's blood covers our sin!
 
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