Biden wants 3 month mandate on Masks

[NurseGoodVol]

I just saw this a few minutes ago. I’m all for masks inside brick and mortar establishments and confined crowded-outdoor areas but a 100% National mandate on all outside activity to me seems asinine and an overreach. What say you ?

can't print what I think. I'll just say nu huh.
I can't

 

[615vols]

The study was completed before the current issues in HK, as has been pointed out several times. I can explain that to you but I can't understand it for you.

This is really a easier concept to reconcile than your other failed argument about third world immigrants.

On a side note, your unearned condescension is coming across as forced, especially for someone who literally brought nothing to the table worthy of serious consideration.

The only failed arguments I’ve seen are yours. You probably should’ve picked up on that fact when you noticed that you’re the only one in here trying to argue that the United States isn’t even in the top 15 in freedom and choice. You have multiple people laughing at the stupidity of your “argument” and pointing that out to you, and still it isn’t clicking in your head. Your getting beat up all over the thread dude, just take your L like you did in the George Floyd thread and move on.

 

[Septic]

If you want to bring up costs, which again isnt a limit on the negative freedom your list was using, taxes should be considered.

At least if they are consistent.

But maybe it's more like their rule of law=freedom. If this doesnt sound familiar it's because it's the part/post you skipped.

Since I have been using the UK (easiest for me to find info on) I would be taxed at 40%. That's a fair step up for me. Their government budget is 37.7% of their gdp. As opposed to the US 20% ish of course thanks to trumps magic Covid money that's closer to 25%. So it's clear they tax overall a lot more than we do. But according to your link that's probably considered a freedom to"get" to pay taxes while "having" to pay for health insurance here is considered a negative.

An individual might come out better under their system. But with the higher gdp ratio I dont see an argument for a freer system overall.

Who else was on the list? Norway has a surplus, I guess they are free to be taxed more.

Germany is also running a surplus. But at a 45.4% budget to gdp I would hope so. More freedom there.

You cant pretend it's a zero sum game of only health care out of pocket expenses. Especially under this idea of "freedom" of paying more to get more free stuff. It's a reductive/ self defeating argument. If American healthcare got off the cheap and charged what others tax, while removing any choice of having healthcare, I guess that would be more free or exceptional in your book?

You've said a lot, but what did you just say? Attempting to muddy the waters of who pays for what and how much doesn't do anything to address the fact that millions of people are uninsured in America. A fact that despite your best effort to deflect from, isn't very "exceptional."

 

[LouderVol]

You've said a lot, but what did you just say? Attempting to muddy the waters of who pays for what and how much doesn't do anything to address the fact that millions of people are uninsured in America. A fact that despite your best effort to deflect from, isn't very "exceptional."

I covered this earlier on. Me having health care does not make me any more free than not having it. No matter who pays for it.

All their system does is shift when its paid for. I dont see any logic in thinking that paying at my paycheck to the government vs at the doctors, or regularly to the insurance is more "freedom".

And considering its government mandated in the "freer" countries I again question their definition of freedom.

 

[ABINGDON VOL FAN]

Yep need to go for herd immunity..... every single time that people come out of hiding it will flare back up again.

I have questions about herd immunity. Of course it means more people die but I have seen reports where individuals catch it a 2nd time. Can herd immunity ever be reached if that is true? Maybe some of the medical professionals here on VN can answer that.

 

[Septic]

The only failed arguments I’ve seen are yours. You probably should’ve picked up on that fact when you noticed that you’re the only one in here trying to argue that the United States isn’t even in the top 15 in freedom and choice. You have multiple people laughing at the stupidity of your “argument” and pointing that out to you, and still it isn’t clicking in your head. Your getting beat up all over the thread dude, just take your L like you did in the George Floyd thread and move on.

LOL, my man - you've done nothing but thump your chest and claim victory without offering anything of substance to refute the study. I suppose it's more convenient to misrepresent my statements than having to provide an answer to why they're wrong. Keep on strutting little pigeon.

If anyone else would like to chime in on why the freedom index study I cited was flawed, I'm all ears. Or more importantly, how anyone could state that the U.S. isn't anything more than average when it comes to our peers in "freedoms".

 

[ABINGDON VOL FAN]

Biden stayed he wanted all 50 governors to issued mandated mask orders for 3 months not a federal mandate.

Federal or State mandate is really not that important. It’s still a mandate. Good luck with that.

 

[volbeast33]

I have questions about herd immunity. Of course it means more people die but I have seen reports where individuals catch it a 2nd time. Can herd immunity ever be reached if that is true? Maybe some of the medical professionals here on VN can answer that.

There was guesses that people caught it again but now it looks more like people can test positive up to four months after the initial positive test....it is why the CDC changed the recommendations to 10 day quarantine without a retest.

 

[Septic]

I covered this earlier on. Me having health care does not make me any more free than not having it. No matter who pays for it.

All their system does is shift when its paid for. I dont see any logic in thinking that paying at my paycheck to the government vs at the doctors, or regularly to the insurance is more "freedom".

And considering its government mandated in the "freer" countries I again question their definition of freedom.

Your personal anecdote aside, there are roughly 30 million Americans with out the "freedom" you believe is a privilege to those who can afford it.

Not very exceptional.

Also, "mandated" is a weird way to say "available to everyone." Public school is available to everyone in America, would you also describe that as a "mandate"?

 

[Sandman 423]

LOL, my man - you've done nothing but thump your chest and claim victory without offering anything of substance to refute the study. I suppose it's more convenient to misrepresent my statements than having to provide an answer to why they're wrong. Keep on strutting little pigeon.

If anyone else would like to chime in on why the freedom index study I cited was flawed, I'm all ears. Or more importantly, how anyone could state that the U.S. isn't anything more than average when it comes to our peers in "freedoms".

ohhhhh........ It's like watching one of those Rocky-esk moments for Sep. I can almost here the music as I read his troll game. Nice to have you back @Septic.

 

[volbeast33]

Your personal anecdote aside, there are roughly 30 million Americans with out the "freedom" you believe is a privilege to those who can afford it.

Not very exceptional.

Also, "mandated" is a weird way to say "available to everyone." Public school is available to everyone in America, would you also describe that as a "mandate"?

How many of those 30,000,000 want to work to get insurance?

 

[LouderVol]

LOL, my man - you've done nothing but thump your chest and claim victory without offering anything of substance to refute the study. I suppose it's more convenient to misrepresent my statements than having to provide an answer to why they're wrong. Keep on strutting little pigeon.

If anyone else would like to chime in on why the freedom index study I cited was flawed, I'm all ears. Or more importantly, how anyone could state that the U.S. isn't anything more than average when it comes to our peers in "freedoms".

You have been actively avoiding how I think the index is flawed.

 

[Septic]

ohhhhh........ It's like watching one of those Rocky-esk moments for Sep. I can almost here the music as I read his troll game. Nice to have you back @Septic.

The irony is that I think the U.S. is a pretty great place, generally speaking. It's just fascinating for me to see people so brainwashed on the fact that the U.S. is 'da best', none of them stopped to question what supported that belief to begin with. Instead, the mere questioning of that has opened up a can of vitriol that I probably should have anticipated, but didn't.

 

[37L1]

The irony is that I think the U.S. is a pretty great place, generally speaking. It's just fascinating for me to see people so brainwashed on the fact that the U.S. is 'da best', none of them stopped to question what supported that belief to begin with. Instead, the mere questioning of that has opened up a can of vitriol that I probably should have anticipated, but didn't.

Come on. I usually believe you but your last. . .

You go looking for stuff like this so you can rub their noses in it and laugh all the live long day.




I like your style.

 

[Septic]

How many of those 30,000,000 want to work to get insurance?

Not relevant to the conversation. But since you brought it up, employment doesn't guarantee health insurance.

 

[Septic]

You have been actively avoiding how I think the index is flawed.

Where is the methodology they used in the study flawed? You not wanting to accept the results doesn't make them cease to exist.

If the study is wrong, point out where.

 

[Septic]

Come on. I usually believe you but your last. . .

You go looking for stuff like this so you can rub their noses in it and laugh all the live long day.




I like your style.

Ok, I did have a wry grin when I mashed that out. But that's all.

 

[LouderVol]

Yeah. Like I thought they are basing their freedom scores based on laws.
"Individual freedom is therefore depen-
dent on the rule of law, a broad concept that
encompasses due process, equal treatment un-
der the law, accountability of government of-
ficials, and notions of fairness, predictability,
and justice."
The more laws a nation has the more "protected" the citizens are and in their world the more "free" they are.

It starts with talking about negative freedom (freedom of outside constraints), but then uses excludes the laws.

I havent seen if they dive into it but I would love to see how they divide authoratarian laws vs not. I get the suspicion that "for the children" laws just are assumed to be more free than not. Which I would say is not inherently true.

I am not arguing for positive freedom, freedom from ANY constraint. But I think it's short sighted in this discussion to not dive into these laws. Which would truly be exhaustive, and outside the scope they took.

Bump for Septic.

They are justifying some of their freedom scores based on rule of law coverage. Under their reasoning the more nanny state a government is the more free the people are.

Which I fundamentally disagree with.

 

[LouderVol]

Your personal anecdote aside, there are roughly 30 million Americans with out the "freedom" you believe is a privilege to those who can afford it.

Not very exceptional.

Also, "mandated" is a weird way to say "available to everyone." Public school is available to everyone in America, would you also describe that as a "mandate"?

I sure would on the schools.

If you can be jailed/fined over it, it's not a "freedom" it's a mandate.

Just like the Freedom OF religion is also the freedom FROM religion.

Freedom includes all reasonable options. Again I am not a "positive freedom" believer, where ANY limitation is a limit on freedom. And supposedly neither was the link. They just define their "negative freedoms" very acutely.

 

[hog88]

Bump for Septic.

They are justifying some of their freedom scores based on rule of law coverage. Under their reasoning the more nanny state a government is the more free the people are.

Which I fundamentally disagree with.

He can do this all day.

I agree 100% with you.

 

[volbeast33]

Not relevant to the conversation. But since you brought it up, employment doesn't guarantee health insurance.

Yeah, but you can get a job that does if you want too....I guess I’m just negative about this from personal experience...my dad ran a jailhouse ministry.... brought in released felons to work on his crew....gave them rides, tools, food....Insurance.... teach them a trade so that they could be a mason in sixth months.... not a single one made it past 3-4 days..... we went to a poor families house to help a family that we were told were having to burn their wood flooring for heat.... when we got there..... we observed wood laying all over the outside of the house from the woods that all they had to do is walk outside to pick up... we went indie and there was three able bodied people that were just too lazy to do anything at all....Then my wife’s best friend.... neither her nor her husband want to work..... he is pretty much too lazy to carry the garbage to the curb..... every time we have went over there they want to trade food stamps for cash....I am a little jaded and don’t want to pay more taxes to cover people with very little drive.

 

[Septic]

Bump for Septic.

They are justifying some of their freedom scores based on rule of law coverage. Under their reasoning the more nanny state a government is the more free the people are.

Which I fundamentally disagree with.

Just so I'm clear, you have an issue with legal regulation that protects individual freedoms? And that the regulation exists somehow makes them less free?

"Individual freedom is therefore dependent on the rule of law, a broad concept that encompasses due process, equal treatment under the law, accountability of government officials, and notions of fairness, predictability, and justice."

Yes, these are all concepts that all American's should rightfully reject. Anarchy, not rule of law is on the menu for you? Fortunately we don't have anything like that codified as a standard as those sort of things would certainly move us down the ladder of exceptionality.

 

[Septic]

I sure would on the schools.

If you can be jailed/fined over it, it's not a "freedom" it's a mandate.

Just like the Freedom OF religion is also the freedom FROM religion.

Freedom includes all reasonable options. Again I am not a "positive freedom" believer, where ANY limitation is a limit on freedom. And supposedly neither was the link. They just define their "negative freedoms" very acutely.

So private schools aren't a thing in your world?

 

[KB5252]

Interesting that it's 3 month mandate he's wanting, surely that's not coincidence.

 

[kiddiedoc]

Interesting that it's 3 month mandate he's wanting, surely that's not coincidence.

Why, what's in three months?