Butch, Pruitt and Heupel Similarities

[VolMarine1371]

OK. You have Marine in your screen name so I'm guessing you have some connection to the Marines.

In peace time, how do you evaluate guys for promotion? You look at scores and performance that hopefully points to how they would do in combat. But history is chock full of guys who rose through the ranks because they were great in training who then folded in combat. The opposite is true as well. Some guys weren't good in training but were elite when the bullets started flying.

USUALLY "practice" is a great comparative indicator for who will perform the best in combat... or a game. But not always. You stress guys as much as you can whether in training or practice in hopes of accurately predicting how they'll respond.

EVERYONE... as in coaches, media, former players, players,... EVERYONE said that Milton had run away with the job two years ago. It wasn't a close race. It wasn't even a race. Then... the bullets started flying and Milton apparently panicked (not unlike what you're doing in a different way). He didn't keep his head and play like he'd practiced. He missed reads and throws. He got nicked up (not injured). He was available to play but then Hooker showed a level of instinct and game intelligence that practice can't necessarily reveal.

I do not know at what point Heupel thinks about making a move. He very obviously thought he had Milton fixed. There is some reason to take hope due to the 2nd half. Still too many mistakes but he appeared to start playing looser and more naturally. But Heupel is the only one of us with the information and experience to make that call.

I understand everything you completely said. I retired out of the Marines and was very involved on promotions and performance evaluations as soon as I became an NCO. I can also tell you I understand the analogy being used when “bullets start flying” then you know what you really have, as I done 2 tours to Iraq. Even though football isn’t life or death, I still look at it in a way that I did when I was in the Marines, I was involved in performance evaluations to determine what my team/Mariens where best at.

I have seen guys rise to the top and shouldn’t have, hell even a Turd floats. But from my personal experience I did not continue to try and push a guy beyond his strengths even though I knew he wasn’t capable. I literally had Lance Corporal Fireteam leaders that had Corporals in their team due to them being proven they could do what I needed better than the NCO. It wasn’t a popular move, but I done what was best for the platoon/team. On my first tour to Iraq I had a Marine in my squad that was a pretty good Marine when in the states. Yes there was red flags and warnings while training in the states, but I still had him in a very important position. We got in a situation while on the way out to a Combat Outpost, and we had to stop on the middle of the road yo investigate what was in the road. It required this Marine to get out of vehicle and with mine detector/metal detector over it to make sure it wasn’t an explosive. Remind you he asked for this job on the states and done good at it while in training. But when his number was called he refused to do his job and was not looking out for the well being of his team. As mad as it made me I got out and done it myself as a sergeant and cleared the item. That was the last time that Marine was ever put in a position of trust and leadership. I knew he didn’t have it mentally and I didn’t force him. Once returning back to base I made the change and demoted him out of his position for a lower ranking marine with less time. He done everything in his power to make it right and do good while I’m training, but as a leader I had done seen enough to know he wasn’t a good fit for that spot.

So now here we are in the 3rd year of Milton and he’s still making the same mistakes. Game was moving too fast for him at times and he was inconsistent like he has been for 3 years now. At what point does Heupel finally decide that it’s time to see what someone else can do when the lights are on and make a change for the betterment of the team? Milton practices great, no doubt about it. We also heard JG had great practices also and best out everyone in practices. But someone practice is not a good indicator of what someone can do when the lights are on. Hooker is the last example of that

 

[sjt18]

I understand everything you completely said. I retired out of the Marines and was very involved on promotions and performance evaluations as soon as I became an NCO. I can also tell you I understand the analogy being used when “bullets start flying” then you know what you really have, as I done 2 tours to Iraq. Even though football isn’t life or death, I still look at it in a way that I did when I was in the Marines, I was involved in performance evaluations to determine what my team/Mariens where best at.

I have seen guys rise to the top and shouldn’t have, hell even a Turd floats. But from my personal experience I did not continue to try and push a guy beyond his strengths even though I knew he wasn’t capable. I literally had Lance Corporal Fireteam leaders that had Corporals in their team due to them being proven they could do what I needed better than the NCO. It wasn’t a popular move, but I done what was best for the platoon/team. On my first tour to Iraq I had a Marine in my squad that was a pretty good Marine when in the states. Yes there was red flags and warnings while training in the states, but I still had him in a very important position. We got in a situation while on the way out to a Combat Outpost, and we had to stop on the middle of the road yo investigate what was in the road. It required this Marine to get out of vehicle and with mine detector/metal detector over it to make sure it wasn’t an explosive. Remind you he asked for this job on the states and done good at it while in training. But when his number was called he refused to do his job and was not looking out for the well being of his team. As mad as it made me I got out and done it myself as a sergeant and cleared the item. That was the last time that Marine was ever put in a position of trust and leadership. I knew he didn’t have it mentally and I didn’t force him. Once returning back to base I made the change and demoted him out of his position for a lower ranking marine with less time. He done everything in his power to make it right and do good while I’m training, but as a leader I had done seen enough to know he wasn’t a good fit for that spot.

So now here we are in the 3rd year of Milton and he’s still making the same mistakes. Game was moving too fast for him at times and he was inconsistent like he has been for 3 years now. At what point does Heupel finally decide that it’s time to see what someone else can do when the lights are on and make a change for the betterment of the team? Milton practices great, no doubt about it. We also heard JG had great practices also and best out everyone in practices. But someone practice is not a good indicator of what someone can do when the lights are on. Hooker is the last example of that

Great background and I believe we've basically reached a point of agreement.

But one more question as a former USAR 2nd Lt (long ago) who went nose to nose with a Lt Col who threatened my job after HE micromanaged my commander and me. Who... got to make the call about your Marines? Officially your commander had the prerogative to tell you what to do... but who had the best knowledge, understanding, information, and connection to make that call? It was you, right?

I have held positions of greater responsibility since. It is lonely to be the guy who has to make that critical call. That's why I'm pretty sensitive to criticisms like yours. Heupel has the information. It is his job and team on the line. He is the one who has to assess the risks and make the call. Even if we think we might disagree with his decision, I think you and I having been in similar places should respect his right to do it with support, right?

 

[VolMarine1371]

These people are out there among us.....

Jones had better talent than his record but not playoff caliber coming outta the SEC. Pruitt didnt have talent and inherited a terrble culture. Players didnt trust anyone and didnt him. The first season was a complete waste. Hooker wasntthat impressive in his first game vs Florida either.

Those 2015 and 2016 teams was loaded. A better coach than what we had would most definitely had that team in the playoffs one year.
2015 team:
L OU- 31-24 (2OT) 17-3 lead with 8:30 left in game
L UF- 28-27 up 20-7 start the 4th.
L- Ark- 24-20 only loss we had where we didn’t have lead in 4th. Still had 14-0 lead in 2nd q.
L- Bama- 19-14, had 14-13 lead under 4 minutes

We had no business losing that OU and UF game with double digit leads in the 4th quarter. Remeber we had a chance against Bama after they scored and went up. Had all 3 timeouts and ball on the 50 or so with 2:20 left and all of sudden coaching falls again. That 2015 team was loaded.

Dobbs, Jennings, Kamara, Hurd, Barnett, Trey Smith, Tuttle, McKenzie, Pig, John Kelly, Malone, Kyle Phillips, Todd Kelly, Sutton, Gaulden, North, Preston Williams, Von Pearson, Foreman, Mosley, Darrell Taylor, Croom, Bates, Reeves Maybin, Evan Berry, Kirkland Jr, Elliott Berry, Vickers, Maggitt, Vareen, along with many others.

This team with a better coach would have went to the playoffs and most definitely Atlanta. There should have been no reason to lose more than 1 game that year. That’s why I said, that it was straight criminal what Butch done with all that talent.

 

[VolMarine1371]

These people are out there among us.....

Jones had better talent than his record but not playoff caliber coming outta the SEC. Pruitt didnt have talent and inherited a terrble culture. Players didnt trust anyone and didnt him. The first season was a complete waste. Hooker wasntthat impressive in his first game vs Florida either.

Those 2015 and 2016 teams was loaded. A better coach than what we had would most definitely had that team in the playoffs one year.
2015 team:
L OU- 31-24 (2OT) 17-3 lead with 8:30 left in game
L UF- 28-27 up 20-7 start the 4th.
L- Ark- 24-20 only loss we had where we didn’t have lead in 4th. Still had 14-0 lead in 2nd q.
L- Bama- 19-14, had 14-13 lead under 4 minutes

We had no business losing that OU and UF game with double digit leads in the 4th quarter. Remeber we had a chance against Bama after they scored and went up. Had all 3 timeouts and ball on the 50 or so with 2:20 left and all of sudden coaching falls again. That 2015 team was loaded.

Dobbs, Jennings, Kamara, Hurd, Barnett, Trey Smith, Tuttle, McKenzie, Pig, John Kelly, Malone, Kyle Phillips, Todd Kelly, Sutton, Gaulden, North, Preston Williams, Von Pearson, Foreman, Mosley, Darrell Taylor,

 

[StickMan]

Butch- talented enough teams to make playoffs in 2015 and 2016. Dobbs leaves and Butch is exposed. Failed to develop QB behind Dobbs. Decided to die on the sword for JG. Best wins- UGAx2, UF

Pruitt- had a lot of talent, just couldn’t develop it and wasn’t a good HC. Was in over his head the minute he took the job. But still decent recruiter. Best wins, Auburn.

Heupel- started Milton over Hooker, and if not for the injury to Milton, Hooker don’t play when he did. Hooker plays for 2 years and Heupel looks like a great coach but misses the playoffs last year, even though had enough talent to make it. Hooker gone and Heupel starting to look like suspect.

Heupel is willing to die on the sword for Milton like Butch and Pruitt did for JG, even when it is clear Milton is not the answer. We do not know what we have in Nico till he gets meaningful time. But what I am certain of is that we can win the same amount of games with Nico at QB as Milton. When will Heupel give Nico a chance, or will he suffer the same fate as Pruitt and Butch?

Wow, I don't even know where to begin. Two things I do know: one, Heupel knows football better than anyone on this board by leaps and bounds. Two, Heupel wants to win as much or more than anyone on this board. If he believes starting Nico gives us the best chance to win, he will.

 

[VolMarine1371]

Wow, I don't even know where to begin. Two things I do know: one, Heupel knows football better than anyone on this board by leaps and bounds. Two, Heupel wants to win as much or more than anyone on this board. If he believes starting Nico gives us the best chance to win, he will.

I agree with both things you said and won’t even pretend to know what he knows. I’m just going off what I have seen happened with my own eyes. Nothing more.

 

[VolMarine1371]

Great background and I believe we've basically reached a point of agreement.

But one more question as a former USAR 2nd Lt (long ago) who went nose to nose with a Lt Col who threatened my job after HE micromanaged my commander and me. Who... got to make the call about your Marines? Officially your commander had the prerogative to tell you what to do... but who had the best knowledge, understanding, information, and connection to make that call? It was you, right?

I have held positions of greater responsibility since. It is lonely to be the guy who has to make that critical call. That's why I'm pretty sensitive to criticisms like yours. Heupel has the information. It is his job and team on the line. He is the one who has to assess the risks and make the call. Even if we think we might disagree with his decision, I think you and I having been in similar places should respect his right to do it with support, right?

 

[VolMarine1371]

I was fortunate enough to be under a great 1st LT that actually let the NCO’s do our jobs when I was stationed in North Carolina. But I have been part of units that did not allow the NCO’s do their jobs.

When I made the changes I did, my LT flat out told me he would hold me accountable if it didn’t work. Lucky enough for me it worked and the rest is history. But I was nervous, because at first I got some push back when I promoted an E-3 to Fireteam leader over an E-4 in my squad. I was brought into the office and had to explain to my 1st Lt, Company Gunny, and my Company commander why I did what I did. They let me know the consequences if it did not work but ultimately let me stand by my decision.

But they also knew it was the sergeants that knew their Marines better than anyone as we was the ones that was directly involved in training them and leading them. We was given the team and it was up to us to follow the play book given to us and have our guys ready for when we went on deployments. I was in a unit that put a big emphasis on the NCO’s leading the way. But in the end, when things didn’t work out, It was myself that was being held accountable from my 1st LT if my Marines didn't perform. They didn’t want any excuses for why they didn’t perform as I was the one directly responsible for everything they did at work and outside of work. So when given someone multiple chances and they still don’t make it, I have learned you’re asking for trouble. You can’t expect different results when you don’t change nothing to get those results. I also know it could be stressful making changes like that, as if it don’t work you don’t want to go backwards either. So sometimes it’s easier for some to keep on with what they have, rather than making a change and it done work and now you have to go back to what wanst working also. That also can do damage to a team. It’s sensitive I get it, but someone has to be the adult in the room of your team don’t trust each other much less it’s leader.

 

[sjt18]

I was fortunate enough to be under a great 1st LT that actually let the NCO’s do our jobs when I was stationed in North Carolina. But I have been part of units that did not allow the NCO’s do their jobs.

When I made the changes I did, my LT flat out told me he would hold me accountable if it didn’t work. Lucky enough for me it worked and the rest is history. But I was nervous, because at first I got some push back when I promoted an E-3 to Fireteam leader over an E-4 in my squad. I was brought into the office and had to explain to my 1st Lt, Company Gunny, and my Company commander why I did what I did. They let me know the consequences if it did not work but ultimately let me stand by my decision.

But they also knew it was the sergeants that knew their Marines better than anyone as we was the ones that was directly involved in training them and leading them. We was given the team and it was up to us to follow the play book given to us and have our guys ready for when we went on deployments. I was in a unit that put a big emphasis on the NCO’s leading the way. But in the end, when things didn’t work out, It was myself that was being held accountable from my 1st LT if my Marines didn't perform. They didn’t want any excuses for why they didn’t perform as I was the one directly responsible for everything they did at work and outside of work. So when given someone multiple chances and they still don’t make it, I have learned you’re asking for trouble. You can’t expect different results when you don’t change nothing to get those results. I also know it could be stressful making changes like that, as if it don’t work you don’t want to go backwards either. So sometimes it’s easier for some to keep on with what they have, rather than making a change and it done work and now you have to go back to what wanst working also. That also can do damage to a team. It’s sensitive I get it, but someone has to be the adult in the room of your team don’t trust each other much less it’s leader.

Agree but you are making a whole bunch of assumptions there about what is or is not happening in Heupel's situation.

He has to make that call.

As fans, we are sort of like your commander. We ultimately have a say in whether a guy keeps his job or not- faces the consequences. Heupel's decisions will either win or lose games. To try to micromanage and particularly from this "distance"... is not something you would have tolerated as a squad leader, is it?

 

[VolMarine1371]

As a squad leader I was under a constant microscope from the people higher than me and the ones below me. If what I was doing didn’t work, or I couldn’t get my Marines to follow my lead then someone else would step in and micromanage that. If I was making decisions that everyone could see that is wrong, I would eventually be overruled and my leadership would be called into question by everyone around me. I have learned when you are making changes and decisions rather wrong or right, people can tolerate a lot more. When you sit back and allow the same things to happen over and over and make excuses for why it’s happening. That is frowned on big time in the military and civilian world. At least when you make physical changes it shows people you are trying and willing to roll the dice and fix the issues. But to still be seeing the same thing we seen 3 years ago is frustrating from a 6th year senior. And when we have a chance to get Nico and others more reps we don’t.

Last week would have been a great game to see what Nico had against AP. No matter what, we would have still had the athletes to beat AP regardless who is the QB. Look at what Nick Saran did for instance. He knows what he has in Milroe, but used the USF game to see what he had in the other 2 before opening SEC play. Now he has seen all 3 QB’s in action and he still sticking with Milroe. What would it have hurt to tell Joe, “hey man we know what you are capable of doing, but we gonna use the AP game to evaluate the QB’s with the starters.” Saban said he like Milroe leadership and he is now the QB going forward after he has seen all 3 in game action. They knew they could beat USF with athletes alone. Just like UT should be able to put athlete AP.

 

[plumbervol]

Dobbs is a special player and he has worked himself into starting games in the NFL. IMO Hooker is a special player and both Dobbs and Hooker made their HC look good. Both QB's would make any coach look like a genuis. The difference is that Coach Hype has been doing this at a higher level than Butch ever did. Hype was successful at UCF and has had 2 great years at TN. Was a successful as a OC at every stop at Power 5 Conference schools. Butch was and is a subpar HC

 

[Orangeslice13]

Dobbs is a special player and he has worked himself into starting games in the NFL. IMO Hooker is a special player and both Dobbs and Hooker made their HC look good. Both QB's would make any coach look like a genuis. The difference is that Coach Hype has been doing this at a higher level than Butch ever did. Hype was successful at UCF and has had 2 great years at TN. Was a successful as a OC at every stop at Power 5 Conference schools. Butch was and is a subpar HC

there’s absolutely no comparison at all in any way.
The concept is moronic

 

[loggervol]

Butch- talented enough teams to make playoffs in 2015 and 2016. Dobbs leaves and Butch is exposed. Failed to develop QB behind Dobbs. Decided to die on the sword for JG. Best wins- UGAx2, UF

Pruitt- had a lot of talent, just couldn’t develop it and wasn’t a good HC. Was in over his head the minute he took the job. But still decent recruiter. Best wins, Auburn.

Heupel- started Milton over Hooker, and if not for the injury to Milton, Hooker don’t play when he did. Hooker plays for 2 years and Heupel looks like a great coach but misses the playoffs last year, even though had enough talent to make it. Hooker gone and Heupel starting to look like suspect.

Heupel is willing to die on the sword for Milton like Butch and Pruitt did for JG, even when it is clear Milton is not the answer. We do not know what we have in Nico till he gets meaningful time. But what I am certain of is that we can win the same amount of games with Nico at QB as Milton. When will Heupel give Nico a chance, or will he suffer the same fate as Pruitt and Butch?

Please stop

When did either of those two coaches beat Alabubba and win 10 games in their second year?

 

[VolMarine1371]

Please stop

When did either of those two coaches beat Alabubba and win 10 games in their second year?

But Butch did beat UF and UGA in the same season. Butch also beat UGA back to back years.

 

[BigOrangeFanatic]

no it won’t.
No more that the entirety of last year doesn’t define his future

If it doesn't, then what will? This is year 3. I didnt expext an 11-1 season, but you cant go 6-6 or 7-5 in year 3 which is what we're headed for. The defensive secondary has absolutely sucked from day 1. He has done nothing to fix it. If he doesn't make some changes on the defensive side of the ball, he's gonna have to hope Nico is the next Heisman trophy winner or his downfall will happen quickly and he'll be getting in line behind the others who didn't last here.

All the eggs are in the Nico basket, and he better not wait too long to move on from Joe.