Butch, Pruitt and Heupel Similarities

#102
#102
BP4Prez said:
1. Playing a freshman behind a terrible O line probably isn’t either. Now that issue is on Heupel and staff

2. The fact we were 11-2 with that defense is nothing short of a miracle.
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Just shows you how high powered our offense was with Hooker and some others. Mainly Pruitts recruits....This offense has to have a damn good QB for it to click on all cylinders....when it doesn't you saw the 16 points we got against FL. At times the other night I thought I was watching a Pruitt coached team....Running our RBs between the tackles into a brick wall with a bad OL...throwing those 1 yard passes...not using the middle of the field...confused on getting lined up. Defense wouldn't tackle...no DL pressure....getting wore out on the perimeter all night...and our DBs couldn't cover a 1 legged grandmother. As bad as I've seen since Pruitts days here.

And IMO no way in year 3 and with the transfer portal we should be in the shape on the OL and some other positions we are.
 
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#103
#103
cherokeeeVOL said:
Yeah. They need quality depth in a big way too. There's always a drop-off but it's pretty glaring at certain positions. I think part of what made last year go so well was we didn't have any catastrophic injuries at positions of need minus Hendon at the end of the season. And even when Hendon went down, Joe was serviceable due to good O-line play. Cooper going down was a big, big loss unfortunately. Hope he's able to get back out there for South Carolina. One of many concerns I have is, after Cooper leaves, who is the center for next season? I guess it's Ollie and we have to hope he improves? Or they go to the portal again?
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I don’t want to cut a kid down. I’m 41 years old and I don’t like putting 17-23 year old college kids down when it comes to their play. Lack of effort, stupid decisions on and off the field are different . If Lane is our option for next season we need to go portal. I’m sure he’s a good kid, but it’s pretty clear he’s not an SEC caliber center. He had a very, very tough night on Saturday.
 
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#104
#104
RDU VOL#14 said:
I don’t want to cut a kid down. I’m 41 years old and I don’t like putting 17-23 year old college kids down when it comes to their play. Lack of effort, stupid decisions on and off the field are different . If Lane is our option for next season we need to go portal. I’m sure he’s a good kid, but it’s pretty clear he’s not an SEC caliber center. He had a very, very tough night on Saturday.
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I feel the same way. Never want to bash these kids but the reality is the drop-off is just so big unfortunately at key spots right now.
 
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#105
#105
VolMarine1371 said:
Butch- talented enough teams to make playoffs in 2015 and 2016. Dobbs leaves and Butch is exposed. Failed to develop QB behind Dobbs. Decided to die on the sword for JG. Best wins- UGAx2, UF

Pruitt- had a lot of talent, just couldn’t develop it and wasn’t a good HC. Was in over his head the minute he took the job. But still decent recruiter. Best wins, Auburn.

Heupel- started Milton over Hooker, and if not for the injury to Milton, Hooker don’t play when he did. Hooker plays for 2 years and Heupel looks like a great coach but misses the playoffs last year, even though had enough talent to make it. Hooker gone and Heupel starting to look like suspect.

Heupel is willing to die on the sword for Milton like Butch and Pruitt did for JG, even when it is clear Milton is not the answer. We do not know what we have in Nico till he gets meaningful time. But what I am certain of is that we can win the same amount of games with Nico at QB as Milton. When will Heupel give Nico a chance, or will he suffer the same fate as Pruitt and Butch?
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That is utterly stupid. You don't know how long Heupel would have stayed with Milton. When Hooker proved he was better... he played. According to ALL observers, Milton won the job... and it wasn't close.

One game and suddenly a guy with his success both at UT and elsewhere is "suspect"? Wow.

You don't know what Heupel is "willing to do" concerning Milton but you don't have to be. You can criticize in hindsight and claim you would have done differently presented with ALL the information he has... which you have NEVER had. Maybe Nico isn't ready to be thrown into the fire and Heupel is taking a long view of his QB position rather than short? Maybe his experience tells him that he needs to give Milton more time? Maybe what JM did in the 2nd half will put his mind right? He did play better in spite of missing multiple opportunities.

Like the decisions of any other leader, timing is every bit as important as the decision made. Giving up too soon can cause you to fail. Waiting too long can make you fail. Making the wrong decision can lead to failure.

One thing that is virtually certain... is that your panicked emotional thrashing about... would lead to a very, very bad outcome.
 
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#107
#107
sjt18 said:
That is utterly stupid. You don't know how long Heupel would have stayed with Milton. When Hooker proved he was better... he played. According to ALL observers, Milton won the job... and it wasn't close.

One game and suddenly a guy with his success both at UT and elsewhere is "suspect"? Wow.

You don't know what Heupel is "willing to do" concerning Milton but you don't have to be. You can criticize in hindsight and claim you would have done differently presented with ALL the information he has... which you have NEVER had. Maybe Nico isn't ready to be thrown into the fire and Heupel is taking a long view of his QB position rather than short? Maybe his experience tells him that he needs to give Milton more time? Maybe what JM did in the 2nd half will put his mind right? He did play better in spite of missing multiple opportunities.

Like the decisions of any other leader, timing is every bit as important as the decision made. Giving up too soon can cause you to fail. Waiting too long can make you fail. Making the wrong decision can lead to failure.

One thing that is virtually certain... is that your panicked emotional thrashing about... would lead to a very, very bad outcome.
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And that’s what he scares me. He picked Milton over Hooker and as soon as Hooker got his chance due to injury it was apparent he light years ahead of Milton.
 
#108
#108
sjt18 said:
That is utterly stupid. You don't know how long Heupel would have stayed with Milton. When Hooker proved he was better... he played. According to ALL observers, Milton won the job... and it wasn't close.

One game and suddenly a guy with his success both at UT and elsewhere is "suspect"? Wow.

You don't know what Heupel is "willing to do" concerning Milton but you don't have to be. You can criticize in hindsight and claim you would have done differently presented with ALL the information he has... which you have NEVER had. Maybe Nico isn't ready to be thrown into the fire and Heupel is taking a long view of his QB position rather than short? Maybe his experience tells him that he needs to give Milton more time? Maybe what JM did in the 2nd half will put his mind right? He did play better in spite of missing multiple opportunities.

Like the decisions of any other leader, timing is every bit as important as the decision made. Giving up too soon can cause you to fail. Waiting too long can make you fail. Making the wrong decision can lead to failure.

One thing that is virtually certain... is that your panicked emotional thrashing about... would lead to a very, very bad outcome.
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And everyone keeps talking about Nico not being ready? We won’t know till he sees real meaningful snaps with the 1st stringers. Also just because he’s a freshman don’t mean ****. Rashada for Arizona State is starting right now and doing well and Nico was higher rated than him. When you are struggling like the Vols are, what is there to lose to play Nico or anyone else for that matter?
 
#110
#110
Volz4lif3 said:
A coach that played quarterback I think they would know what of a chance he has this year with one of the QB’s he has on roster.. I just don’t understand VN logic most times..
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This same coaching staff thought Milton was better than Hooker also. But it was only when Milton got hurt that Hooker finally got on the field. As soon as Hooker threw his 1st pass and tucked the ball and took off, everyone knew he was better and a game changer. Milton is not a game changer and we have plenty enough film to show that’s he’s not.
 
#111
#111
RDU VOL#14 said:
I don’t want to cut a kid down. I’m 41 years old and I don’t like putting 17-23 year old college kids down when it comes to their play. Lack of effort, stupid decisions on and off the field are different . If Lane is our option for next season we need to go portal. I’m sure he’s a good kid, but it’s pretty clear he’s not an SEC caliber center. He had a very, very tough night on Saturday.
Click to expand...
What’s the difference in criticizing a 20-24 college player thsn doing the same thing to a 21 year old pro? They both are getting paid to perform and can be basicly cut if they don’t at the end of the season. Scholarships are only good year to year now and it’s up to a coach if he wants to renew it. Like it or not the college game is leaning towards the pro game more than we may want to admit.
 
#112
#112
VolMarine1371 said:
Butch- talented enough teams to make playoffs in 2015 and 2016. Dobbs leaves and Butch is exposed. Failed to develop QB behind Dobbs. Decided to die on the sword for JG. Best wins- UGAx2, UF

Pruitt- had a lot of talent, just couldn’t develop it and wasn’t a good HC. Was in over his head the minute he took the job. But still decent recruiter. Best wins, Auburn.

Heupel- started Milton over Hooker, and if not for the injury to Milton, Hooker don’t play when he did. Hooker plays for 2 years and Heupel looks like a great coach but misses the playoffs last year, even though had enough talent to make it. Hooker gone and Heupel starting to look like suspect.

Heupel is willing to die on the sword for Milton like Butch and Pruitt did for JG, even when it is clear Milton is not the answer. We do not know what we have in Nico till he gets meaningful time. But what I am certain of is that we can win the same amount of games with Nico at QB as Milton. When will Heupel give Nico a chance, or will he suffer the same fate as Pruitt and Butch?
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When I clicked on this I thought sure your were gonna talk bout how undisciplined we still are with all the dumb penalties; did Milton hit the QB late? Did Milton jump offsides like 12 times??
 
#113
#113
VolMarine1371 said:
What’s the difference in criticizing a 20-24 college player thsn doing the same thing to a 21 year old pro? They both are getting paid to perform and can be basicly cut if they don’t at the end of the season. Scholarships are only good year to year now and it’s up to a coach if he wants to renew it. Like it or not the college game is leaning towards the pro game more than we may want to admit.
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I think it’s a different situation when you’re a backup offensive lineman at a school where they’re about 120 guys on the roster, 85 guys on scholarship . I don’t see it as the same as being paid millions of dollars to be a center in the NFL. I agree that it’s trending in that direction towards the pros, but this level of football is as far as he’ll ever go unless something drastic changes.
 
#114
#114
VolMarine1371 said:
And everyone keeps talking about Nico not being ready? We won’t know till he sees real meaningful snaps with the 1st stringers.
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No. "We" won't. But it isn't our job to determine whether he's ready or not or whether playing too early will hurt his future. "We" (as in you) aren't important in this particular decision. Giving him snaps so YOU can see... would be a really stupid thing for a coach to do.

The coaches see him taking meaningful snaps with the 1's every week. The WORST thing they could do for Nico or the team is throw him in before he's ready unless it is absolutely necessary.
VolMarine1371 said:
Also just because he’s a freshman don’t mean ****. Rashada for Arizona State is starting right now and doing well and Nico was higher rated than him. When you are struggling like the Vols are, what is there to lose to play Nico or anyone else for that matter?
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A lot. There's a lot to lose. First, there's the locker room. Will you split your team apart by pulling a guy with 3 years invested in the program when there's plenty of blame to go around? Then there's that skinny 6'6" kid that opposing D's would just LOVE to break into pieces. Then there are opposing coaching staffs who love scheming against Fr and especially if the guys around him aren't playing well.

Then... there's your program. What culture have you invested in? One where you panic at the first sign of trouble and start making sweeping changes? One where you disrespect those vested in the program?

I hate UF more than any other opponent so this one is really hard for me to swallow. But you don't do what you suggest for the same reason you don't slam on the breaks when you start sliding on an icy road. You have to make moves that leave you in control.
 
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#117
#117
VolMarine1371 said:
What’s the difference in criticizing a 20-24 college player thsn doing the same thing to a 21 year old pro? They both are getting paid to perform and can be basicly cut if they don’t at the end of the season. Scholarships are only good year to year now and it’s up to a coach if he wants to renew it. Like it or not the college game is leaning towards the pro game more than we may want to admit.
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That has always been the case. Coaches have just been pretty reluctant to pull a guy's ride except for off the field stuff.

The truth though is that a lot of transfers out of big time programs were likely told privately that their scholarship was being pulled. That saved both the player and the school media scrutiny.
 
#118
#118
VolMarine1371 said:
And that’s what he scares me. He picked Milton over Hooker and as soon as Hooker got his chance due to injury it was apparent he light years ahead of Milton.
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OK. You have Marine in your screen name so I'm guessing you have some connection to the Marines.

In peace time, how do you evaluate guys for promotion? You look at scores and performance that hopefully points to how they would do in combat. But history is chock full of guys who rose through the ranks because they were great in training who then folded in combat. The opposite is true as well. Some guys weren't good in training but were elite when the bullets started flying.

USUALLY "practice" is a great comparative indicator for who will perform the best in combat... or a game. But not always. You stress guys as much as you can whether in training or practice in hopes of accurately predicting how they'll respond.

EVERYONE... as in coaches, media, former players, players,... EVERYONE said that Milton had run away with the job two years ago. It wasn't a close race. It wasn't even a race. Then... the bullets started flying and Milton apparently panicked (not unlike what you're doing in a different way). He didn't keep his head and play like he'd practiced. He missed reads and throws. He got nicked up (not injured). He was available to play but then Hooker showed a level of instinct and game intelligence that practice can't necessarily reveal.

I do not know at what point Heupel thinks about making a move. He very obviously thought he had Milton fixed. There is some reason to take hope due to the 2nd half. Still too many mistakes but he appeared to start playing looser and more naturally. But Heupel is the only one of us with the information and experience to make that call.
 
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#119
#119
sjt18 said:
OK. You have Marine in your screen name so I'm guessing you have some connection to the Marines.

In peace time, how do you evaluate guys for promotion? You look at scores and performance that hopefully points to how they would do in combat. But history is chock full of guys who rose through the ranks because they were great in training who then folded in combat. The opposite is true as well. Some guys weren't good in training but were elite when the bullets started flying.

USUALLY "practice" is a great comparative indicator for who will perform the best in combat... or a game. But not always. You stress guys as much as you can whether in training or practice in hopes of accurately predicting how they'll respond.

EVERYONE... as in coaches, media, former players, players,... EVERYONE said that Milton had run away with the job two years ago. It wasn't a close race. It wasn't even a race. Then... the bullets started flying and Milton apparently panicked (not unlike what you're doing in a different way). He didn't keep his head and play like he'd practiced. He missed reads and throws. He got nicked up (not injured). He was available to play but then Hooker showed a level of instinct and game intelligence that practice can't necessarily reveal.

I do not know at what point Heupel thinks about making a move. He very obviously thought he had Milton fixed. There is some reason to take hope due to the 2nd half. Still too many mistakes but he appeared to start playing looser and more naturally. But Heupel is the only one of us with the information and experience to make that call.
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Very well explained.. just a civilian but a first responder but I understood completely your comparison
 
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#120
#120
VolMarine1371 said:
And everyone keeps talking about Nico not being ready? We won’t know till he sees real meaningful snaps with the 1st stringers. Also just because he’s a freshman don’t mean ****. Rashada for Arizona State is starting right now and doing well and Nico was higher rated than him. When you are struggling like the Vols are, what is there to lose to play Nico or anyone else for that matter?
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The same Rashada that is now injured and may be redshirted? With a QBR of under 30?
I am not saying you are wrong but no one on this forum knows how Nico would do and JH probably has a good guess of how he would do.
 
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#122
#122
If you don’t get the QB right, most everything else doesn’t matter. Stetson Bennett wasn’t highly ranked, but was a damn good QB.

Look at all the SEC teams who have screwed up their QB situation and then figured it out with a good QB. A&M hasn’t had a good QB since Mond, and now look at their offense (light years difference than last year).
 
#123
#123
VolMarine1371 said:
Butch- talented enough teams to make playoffs in 2015 and 2016. Dobbs leaves and Butch is exposed. Failed to develop QB behind Dobbs. Decided to die on the sword for JG. Best wins- UGAx2, UF

Pruitt- had a lot of talent, just couldn’t develop it and wasn’t a good HC. Was in over his head the minute he took the job. But still decent recruiter. Best wins, Auburn.

Heupel- started Milton over Hooker, and if not for the injury to Milton, Hooker don’t play when he did. Hooker plays for 2 years and Heupel looks like a great coach but misses the playoffs last year, even though had enough talent to make it. Hooker gone and Heupel starting to look like suspect.

Heupel is willing to die on the sword for Milton like Butch and Pruitt did for JG, even when it is clear Milton is not the answer. We do not know what we have in Nico till he gets meaningful time. But what I am certain of is that we can win the same amount of games with Nico at QB as Milton. When will Heupel give Nico a chance, or will he suffer the same fate as Pruitt and Butch?
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These people are out there among us.....

Jones had better talent than his record but not playoff caliber coming outta the SEC. Pruitt didnt have talent and inherited a terrble culture. Players didnt trust anyone and didnt him. The first season was a complete waste. Hooker wasntthat impressive in his first game vs Florida either.
 
#124
#124
Is Heupel another Butch or Corndog? Hmmm: I'm going to chew on that for a bit....

Pack of gum, please!
 
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