Bye Bye Louisville

[AM64]

So the police shouldn't be able to return fire if fired upon?

Don't break into someone's house and they likely won't shoot at you. That seems pretty simple.

 

[luthervol]

Cuomo was the Democrat mayor of New York. Non-representative to the extreme.

I watched the video.
They in no way failed to condemn the rioters.
Also, that is the brother of the Governor of NY.

 

[InVOLuntary]

She have convictions on her record? If so, did she do her time/pay her fines?

SHe was currently under investigation. Look, you can put your head in the sand and listen to what CNN and other main street media tell you or you can look at facts that have been made known and come to a logical conclusion that she wasn't the perfect angel that she's been made out to be. There is abundant evidence that she was involved in drug trafficking to some extent. It's unfortunate that her boyfriend decided to open up on a bunch of cops before she could prove her innocence in a court of law. However, you are free to feel that she was not participating in illegal activity if you so chose.

 

[Y9 Vol]

No. Close to zero percent, which is what I originally posted.

Nice Try...11 people out of 125...not "Close to zero"

 

[InVOLuntary]

Don't break into someone's house and they likely won't shoot at you. That seems pretty simple.

SO the police should never enter someone's residence even if they possess a legal warrant saying they can? Should they be able to enter you house if you are being held hostage? SHould they be able to enter someone's house if they suspect someone is hurt on the inside and needs assistance?

Like I've said, I don't like the no knock warrants. I think the cops make their jobs a lot harder than they need to be. There are better ways to go about their business. In this case they knocked, announced their presence and then kicked the door in. If they wait very long people can and do destroy evidence. As Hog said, we don't know how long they gave them to answer the door. If someone is hammering on my door at 12 midnight and are attempting to breach the door, the last thing I'm going to do is run to the door and open fire. I'm going to take a defensive position and see what's going on before I pull the trigger. Maybe it's the neighbors son that's come home drunk and got the wrong house. He shot first.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I watched the video.
They in no way failed to condemn the rioters.
Also, that is the brother of the Governor of NY.

"Who says protests need to be peaceful?" That's not a defense of the violence?

And "You'd better start denouncing this since it's affecting us in the polls" is in not a good look at all.

I'll leave it to you to look up lemon's comments making excuses for Antifa violence leading up to that. He literally defended the violence on the level of ideals, and then asked the Dem politicians to start denouncing it since the polls showed that the majority of the public finds it repugnant.

 

[hog88]

SO the police should never enter someone's residence even if they possess a legal warrant saying they can? Should they be able to enter you house if you are being held hostage? SHould they be able to enter someone's house if they suspect someone is hurt on the inside and needs assistance?

Like I've said, I don't like the no knock warrants. I think the cops make their jobs a lot harder than they need to be. Their are better ways to go about their business. In this case they knocked, announced their presence and then kicked the door in. If they wait very long people can and do destroy evidence. As Hog said, we don't know how long they gave them to answer the door. If someone is hammering on my door at 12 midnight and are attempting to breach the door, the last thing I'm going to do is run to the door and open fire. I'm going to take a defensive position and see what's going on before I pull the trigger. Maybe it's the neighbors son that's come home drunk and got the wrong house. He shot first.

Unless it's a hostage type situation or similar where someone is in danger if they don't then I say no. Wait until they come outside for groceries or something and detain them then. There just isn't much of a need for police to break in doors anymore, so the heck what if the people flush some drugs?

 

[InVOLuntary]

Unless it's a hostage type situation or similar where someone is in danger if they don't then I say no. Wait until they come outside for groceries or something and detain them then. There just isn't much of a need for police to break in doors anymore, so the heck what if the people flush some drugs?

Well what's the point of warrant if you're going to give them time to flush/destroy evidence. Usually the warrant is to obtain evidence. If you are going to allow them to destroy it may as well not even bother with trying to obtain it. There's all kinds of evidence besides drugs. There are computer hard drives that could contain child pronography, lots of things that could be destroyed if you give the criminals a chance.

Like I've said, I am against no knock warrants and I think the cops make the job a lot harder than it has to be sometimes. I can see the need for kicking in a door occasionally.

 

[Weezer]

SHe was currently under investigation. Look, you can put your head in the sand and listen to what CNN and other main street media tell you or you can look at facts that have been made known and come to a logical conclusion that she wasn't the perfect angel that she's been made out to be. There is abundant evidence that she was involved in drug trafficking to some extent. It's unfortunate that her boyfriend decided to open up on a bunch of cops before she could prove her innocence in a court of law. However, you are free to feel that she was not participating in illegal activity if you so chose.

No one's a perfect angel, but you said she was guilty. The cops saying she's guilty, or that she was under investigation, does not actually make her guilty. The bulk of the "abundant evidence" seems to be once upon a time she dated a drug dealer. Seems I recall that in this country, you're supposed to be innocent until PROVEN guilty. The fact she's dead makes it hard for her to get her day in court.

 

[hog88]

Well what's the point of warrant if you're going to give them time to flush/destroy evidence. Usually the warrant is to obtain evidence. If you are going to allow them to destroy it may as well not even bother with trying to obtain it. There's all kinds of evidence besides drugs. There are computer hard drives that could contain child pronography, lots of things that could be destroyed if you give the criminals a chance.

Like I've said, I am against no knock warrants and I think the cops make the job a lot harder than it has to be sometimes. I can see the need for kicking in a door occasionally.

People have to come out sooner or latter, surveil the property until they do a detain them then.

 

[AM64]

SO the police should never enter someone's residence even if they possess a legal warrant saying they can? Should they be able to enter you house if you are being held hostage? SHould they be able to enter someone's house if they suspect someone is hurt on the inside and needs assistance?

Like I've said, I don't like the no knock warrants. I think the cops make their jobs a lot harder than they need to be. Their are better ways to go about their business. In this case they knocked, announced their presence and then kicked the door in. If they wait very long people can and do destroy evidence. As Hog said, we don't know how long they gave them to answer the door. If someone is hammering on my door at 12 midnight and are attempting to breach the door, the last thing I'm going to do is run to the door and open fire. I'm going to take a defensive position and see what's going on before I pull the trigger. Maybe it's the neighbors son that's come home drunk and got the wrong house. He shot first.

I might agree that under some limited conditions to save a life that breaking and entering is warranted. That includes cases you brought up - someone injured or trapped by fire, etc. Even breaking in to save a hostage puts the hostage at greater risk if not done correctly, and I don't think most cops are SAS or any other military group trained specifically for hostage rescue that usually tend to get it reasonably correct.

So, no, I absolutely disagree with breaking and entering under any other circumstances, and for many reasons. There is the assumption in your rebuttal that the homeowner is aware who is at the door and has adequate lighting and the ability to hear through a closed door. There is the assumption I suppose that someone might go to a window to see who is out there without being shot. There is the assumption that no one but a cop can identify themselves by yelling "police". There is the assumption that a cop is identifiable by uniform when they wear all different styles of uniform including BDUs and plain clothes. There is the assumption that a black or dark blue uniform with no reflective identifier is somehow different from someone who wears black for nefarious purposes. I'd actually think that any cop with a sound mind would not want to break into a home under almost any condition. I could call 911 and provide any number of reasons and wait in ambush if I chose. Lilreb has pointed out most of us have nothing to worry about because by our lifestyle we give no one reason to be concerned about us, and I agree whole heartedly, However, police like all of us do make mistakes and poor choices that sometimes affect innocents also.

 

[volbeast33]

That would be a step in the right direction. However, if someone chooses not to open the door, the cops should not have the right to break it down. Breaking and entering is the real issue - knock vs no nock is simply a diversion.

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.... I agree that I don’t think cops should be busting in houses for this drug war especially against someone who is not the main dealer....As a citizen you don’t have the right to not open the door to police..... could you imagine all the murderers and violent felons knowing that all they had to do was get behind a closed door and cops couldn’t touch them.

 

[37L1]

I might agree that under some limited conditions to save a life that breaking and entering is warranted. That includes cases you brought up - someone injured or trapped by fire, etc. Even breaking in to save a hostage puts the hostage at greater risk if not done correctly, and I don't think most cops are SAS or any other military group trained specifically for hostage rescue that usually tend to get it reasonably correct.

So, no, I absolutely disagree with breaking and entering under any other circumstances, and for many reasons. There is the assumption in your rebuttal that the homeowner is aware who is at the door and has adequate lighting and the ability to hear through a closed door. There is the assumption I suppose that someone might go to a window to see who is out there without being shot. There is the assumption that no one but a cop can identify themselves by yelling "police". There is the assumption that a cop is identifiable by uniform when they wear all different styles of uniform including BDUs and plain clothes. There is the assumption that a black or dark blue uniform with no reflective identifier is somehow different from someone who wears black for nefarious purposes. I'd actually think that any cop with a sound mind would not want to break into a home under almost any condition. I could call 911 and provide any number of reasons and wait in ambush if I chose. Lilreb has pointed out most of us have nothing to worry about because by our lifestyle we give no one reason to be concerned about us, and I agree whole heartedly, However, police like all of us do make mistakes and poor choices that sometimes affect innocents also.

Well, you better get busy repealing all that stare decisis regarding search warrants and rewriting of Fourth Amendment.

 

[InVOLuntary]

No one's a perfect angel, but you said she was guilty. The cops saying she's guilty, or that she was under investigation, does not actually make her guilty. The bulk of the "abundant evidence" seems to be once upon a time she dated a drug dealer. Seems I recall that in this country, you're supposed to be innocent until PROVEN guilty. The fact she's dead makes it hard for her to get her day in court.

Again, you're not reading my post. I never said she was guilty, only that she was no angel and she was under investigation at the time. She was named on the warrant.

 

[hog88]

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.... I agree that I don’t think cops should be busting in houses for this drug war especially against someone who is not the main dealer....As a citizen you don’t have the right to not open the door to police..... could you imagine all the murderers and violent felons knowing that all they had to do was get behind a closed door and cops couldn’t touch them.

How long can they stay inside without food and water?

 

[AM64]

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.... I agree that I don’t think cops should be busting in houses for this drug war especially against someone who is not the main dealer....As a citizen you don’t have the right to not open the door to police..... could you imagine all the murderers and violent felons knowing that all they had to do was get behind a closed door and cops couldn’t touch them.

Explain what gives anyone the right to demand that you open the door to them? Everybody has to come out sometime. If they don't, they are virtually imprisoned, which was likely the intent anyway.

 

[InVOLuntary]

I might agree that under some limited conditions to save a life that breaking and entering is warranted. That includes cases you brought up - someone injured or trapped by fire, etc. Even breaking in to save a hostage puts the hostage at greater risk if not done correctly, and I don't think most cops are SAS or any other military group trained specifically for hostage rescue that usually tend to get it reasonably correct.

So, no, I absolutely disagree with breaking and entering under any other circumstances, and for many reasons. There is the assumption in your rebuttal that the homeowner is aware who is at the door and has adequate lighting and the ability to hear through a closed door. There is the assumption I suppose that someone might go to a window to see who is out there without being shot. There is the assumption that no one but a cop can identify themselves by yelling "police". There is the assumption that a cop is identifiable by uniform when they wear all different styles of uniform including BDUs and plain clothes. There is the assumption that a black or dark blue uniform with no reflective identifier is somehow different from someone who wears black for nefarious purposes. I'd actually think that any cop with a sound mind would not want to break into a home under almost any condition. I could call 911 and provide any number of reasons and wait in ambush if I chose. Lilreb has pointed out most of us have nothing to worry about because by our lifestyle we give no one reason to be concerned about us, and I agree whole heartedly, However, police like all of us do make mistakes and poor choices that sometimes affect innocents also.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[InVOLuntary]

People have to come out sooner or latter, surveil the property until they do a detain them then.

Meh, don't think waiting them out is an option. Maybe catching by surprise. There are other tactics, I'll grant you that.

 

[hog88]

Meh, don't think waiting them out is an option. Maybe catching by surprise. There are other tactics, I'll grant you that.

That's all I'm saying, they should always look for the least dangerous option. Especially when it's just drugs.

 

[AM64]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Not a problem; there are plenty of time I'm not part of the herd. Goes both ways, too. I don't think cops should give rioters any quarter whatsoever. I just maybe have weird ideas about when to and when not to apply force to end a situation ... generally dependent on what the risk is to others.

 

[luthervol]

Nice Try...11 people out of 125...not "Close to zero"

The 125 is what was left after the others started dispersing as asked.
Nice try.

 

[AM64]

Well, you better get busy repealing all that stare decisis regarding search warrants and rewriting of Fourth Amendment.

Rule by precedent will be the death of us. Legislation is best left to those we elect - supposedly we can invite them out for bad choices - not so much judges and courts.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Not to the cops. And trying to equate gang violence to excessive force from the police is a pathetic attempt to minimize the Black lives needlessly lost at the hands of police.

That's not what BLM is though Mick. If it is ONLY about that, it is more than pathetic. And it would also be a huge lie. They should have to change their stance to thugs lives matter, because it would be obvious that they don't give a **** about those young black lives.

How many thugs are killed by cops compared to how many black children are killed by drive by drug dealer shootings... and THIS is the hill they choose to die on. Pathetic

 

[Y9 Vol]

The 125 is what was left after the others started dispersing as asked.
Nice try.

AND 11 OF THOSE GOT ARRESTED!

 

[superdave1984]

No one's a perfect angel, but you said she was guilty. The cops saying she's guilty, or that she was under investigation, does not actually make her guilty. The bulk of the "abundant evidence" seems to be once upon a time she dated a drug dealer. Seems I recall that in this country, you're supposed to be innocent until PROVEN guilty. The fact she's dead makes it hard for her to get her day in court.

Not anymore.
However there is evidence she knowingly stashed drugs and/or cash in her apartment for her drug dealer boyfriend/ex boyfriend. How credible that evidence is remains to be seen, but that is why they were at her apartment to begin with. There has to be ample evidence to get the warrant or they just have to wait for them to come outside with whatever the cops are looking for.
Better plan would have been to give ample time for someone to acknowledge their announcement or at least for the cops to fully know the occupants were aware of their presence outside. I have no idea how long it was between knocking and entering. Obviously long enough for the dude to locate his weapon and be ready to shoot it. He should also have waited an appropriate time before firing at the cops. I am sure having cops ransack your place is traumatizing, but far less than having cops bust down your door, having your man shoot at then and them firing back at you and then ransacking the place.