California governor signs "Dream Act"

#28
#28
therealUT said:
I would argue that plenty of illegal immigrant children are the progeny of hardworking individuals, as well.

The message we send is that the law itself is ludicrous, xenophobic, and has been sensationalized by American Labor as anti-American (whatever "American" really means).
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Key word is American, a citizen of the country we call the US. I'm sure you have the intellectual capacity needed to understand what an American is so I won't waste my time.
 
#30
#30
therealUT said:
What are your arguments against illegal immigration? As in, why do you think that is a law that should be on the books and should be defended?
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we have no control over who is coming into this country and what their true intentions are. We have insane amounts of money going to support them while they are here and we also send money to support their home countries. Money that could definitely be used to support the citizens already here.

yes the law could be reworked but it's on the books and isn't it their responsibility to enforce them (I would imagine it's somewhere in the oath they took)? Isn't there also a process to change them ? Sets a dangerous precedent to enforce some and ignore others on a whim
 
#31
#31
volinbham said:
I'll take a shot. A nation has the right to protect it's sovereignty and control who comes in and who doesn't.
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Our nation proposes to grant unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, correct? So, we immediately alienate those persons who want to come in here, because they are not wealthy enough? smart enough? politically connected? It is nearly impossible to get a work VISA for a manual labor job in the US; these persons have no other way to get in.

volinbham said:
It has a right to determine citizenship requirements.
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Not if it expounds the above unalienable rights, it doesn't. Maybe, since we are not going to respect that aspect of the highest law in America, we should go ahead and also get rid of the Statue of Liberty...give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free...

volinbham said:
It has a right to determine what privileges and benefits are extended to the citizenry
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It does not have a right to determine which rights to protect for the persons who want to come here; also, it does not have the right to restrict private individuals from bestowing whatever privileges and benefits they want on any other individual.

volinbham said:
It has a right to determine how the citizenship elects government.
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Not sure what this has to do with the price of tea in China.
 
#32
#32
droski said:
show me another country that openly pays for illegal immigrant children to go to their public schools?
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So, now you want America to be like every other country? Great argument. Don't argue principles of freedom, argue popularity in the world.
 
#34
#34
droski said:
show me another country that openly pays for illegal immigrant children to go to their public schools?
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Hmm, good question. Are there others? I suspect there is a Scandinavian country out there that may allow immigrants into the public education system.
 
#35
#35
volinbham said:
It's fine and dandy if you think the immigration laws should be changed.

I hardly think that merits supporting willful ignoring of laws you don't agree with. If that's the standard then laws become effectively meaningless.
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Meaningless laws should be meaningless.
 
#37
#37
therealUT said:
Our nation proposes to grant unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, correct? So, we immediately alienate those persons who want to come in here, because they are not wealthy enough? smart enough? politically connected? It is nearly impossible to get a work VISA for a manual labor job in the US; these persons have no other way to get in.



Not if it expounds the above unalienable rights, it doesn't. Maybe, since we are not going to respect that aspect of the highest law in America, we should go ahead and also get rid of the Statue of Liberty...give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free...



It does not have a right to determine which rights to protect for the persons who want to come here; also, it does not have the right to restrict private individuals from bestowing whatever privileges and benefits they want on any other individual.



Not sure what this has to do with the price of tea in China.
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There is a process for getting into the country, yes it is lengthy and requires effort on the behalf of those wanting to be here legally. There are very good common sense reasons that need not be explained.
 
#40
#40
utvolpj said:
we have no control over who is coming into this country and what their true intentions are. We have insane amounts of money going to support them while they are here and we also send money to support their home countries. Money that could definitely be used to support the citizens already here.

yes the law could be reworked but it's on the books and isn't it their responsibility to enforce them (I would imagine it's somewhere in the oath they took)? Isn't there also a process to change them ? Sets a dangerous precedent to enforce some and ignore others on a whim
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We have no control over who is born in this country and what their true intentions are, either.

Insane amounts of money supporting them? I have made the argument and supported it with evidence plenty of times here on VN, that illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than do citizens that are at the same earning level (as the citizens will file tax returns; the vast majority of working illegal immigrants do not, while places like Cargill, IBP, etc. make sure to take the taxes out of their paychecks and send to the IRS because they know a hit from the IRS is much more detrimental to their business than a hit from ICE). Therefore, illegal immigrants actually pay for the schools, the medical coverage, the roads, etc. that they use, while many Americans (almost 50% of American workers did not pay taxes this past year, correct?) do not.

On your point, re: enforcing the laws, you are correct and I think that by choosing not to enforce such laws is an impeachable offense. So, if the other elected officials in California wish to impeach their Governor, they have solid ground in doing so. If the Federal Government wants to come in and label California as a rogue state for not enforcing the Federal Law and then declare martial law, the Fed can do so.
 
#41
#41
"Therefore, illegal immigrants actually pay for the schools, the medical coverage, the roads, etc."

the pay a PART of these costs. no where near covering their costs. particurally with their birth rate and the number of kids tehy are sending to public schools.
 
#42
#42
KB5252 said:
There is a process for getting into the country, yes it is lengthy and requires effort on the behalf of those wanting to be here legally. There are very good common sense reasons that need not be explained.
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I would rather you take the time to explain them; it might be lengthy and it might require effort on your behalf, but my reason is that I do not know these "common sense" reasons that you "need not explain".
 
#46
#46
therealUT said:
Our nation proposes to grant unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, correct? So, we immediately alienate those persons who want to come in here, because they are not wealthy enough? smart enough? politically connected? It is nearly impossible to get a work VISA for a manual labor job in the US; these persons have no other way to get in.
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This is not my problem or anybody elses for that matter. Why should we care how hard it is for them to get into the U.S? Why should we make it easy on somebody to get into the U.S, when they give nothing back to society?
 
#50
#50
lawgator1 said:
If they are here, and if the plan is to have them contribute to society in terms of taxes and what not, I can see why you wouldn't want to arm them with the education that can actually cause that to occur.

Better to let them find or continue a life of crime, so they can cost you even more when they are in prison.

Makes total sense.
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But if they are illegal how are they going to find legitimate work when they graduate? Their best option is probably to take a relatively high-paying job in the old country(now that they are bilingual and college educated, subsidized by CA taxpayers). Works for them. Doesn't really help us much.
 
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