Can Tennessee climb the ladder at all tomorrow?

#126
#126
UTFranklinVol said:
CJH did have an empty cupboard and he's definitely better than Pruit but this whole argument that he does more with less no longer holds water after this year. He didn't repeat 2022. He didn't beat anyone he wasn't supposed to beat in 2023, not a single one out of 3 teams (no I'm not counting Missouri because we should be good enough to beat them every year).

Some people around here for some unknown reason say Milton is one of the best QBs UT has had in 20 years But CJH couldn't get the job done.

Maybe he repeats 2022 next year but I don't see anyone predicting that.

IMO 2022 was a wonderful coincidence that CJH had Hooker and Hyatt on the same team at the same time and until proven otherwise that was the exception not the leading indicator of how he does more with less. I think he needs to do more with more to survive at UT and be successful like we want him to be.
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Yah, yah, yah.

You've lost any semblance of objectivity or rational discourse.

Your argument has been that, unless we outrank everyone else on signing day, we can't beat them. Except when we do. And if we do, it's some cosmic force in our favor. But when we don't, it's because of recruiting rankings. And if we do, it's because of that guy who never recruiting ranked for us.

You have gone above and beyond to prove that you're not rationally thinking or arguing this. You just have a flawed argument that you are contorting yourself to preserve.

Knock yourself out, amigo.

I'll just say this... We will likely NEVER get where you need us to be for you to be happy. We will NEVER beat UGA, Bama, UF, TX, Oklahoma, or most SEC schools every year. No matter how much you put your trust in the ranking services and their numbers, UT will never give you what you apparently need.


Seriously, you don't just need to switch teams. You need to switch conferences and find something that'll have much less parity.
 
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#127
#127
UTFranklinVol said:
Yes they are auto losses except for the one time in nearly 2 decades that they have out recruited us. Again you're like the boy that cried wolf and then a wolf shows up once in 20 years and you think your point is proven. No sir I'm not buying it. We proved this year that it was a fluke. Auto losses.
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We proved nothing this year, save that QB1/23 wasn't as good as QB1/22.

You act as though coaching and development played no role in last year, or played no role in the last 20.
 
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#128
#128
Orange_Crush said:
See, I'll take slight issue here. Most of Pruett's quality recruits, as well as previous class recruits, transferred out when he left. Speaking from memory, CJH inherited a 67 player roster and a class that he had to tightrope to try to hold together. His '21 class had 4 4-stars and 10 3-stars.

I would argue (recruiting classes aside, his actual) roster for roster, CJH most likely out-coached and beat several teams with superior rosters than his. Add that to the fact that he beat Bam and UF in his second year, and it gives me indication that he doesn't have to out-rank others on signing day to beat them.

In any event, Pruet did NOT leave CJH in position to beat many teams on our schedule.
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Most of the posters who are slobbering all over CJH are the same idiots who dog cussed anyone who said anything negative about that "that guy who talks like a real football coach" Jeremy Pruitt for the better part of 2.5 seasons. Hendon was Pruitt's recruit. Hendon is why we won 10 regular season games last year. CJH took on a crap situation but he was also getting out of a crap situation of his own making at UCF. You point out some good but there's also the losses to SC '03 and UF '04 to offset any trophies for in-game coaching. Some fans are desperate and will latch onto anyone the UTAD hires and pretend like he's the next Bob Neyland with scant evidence to back it up. Other fans are desperate to win and won't give anyone who isn't a consensus "home run hire" an inch of slack until he proves he can win a championship at UTK. I wish it wasn't that way and we could have real discussions about what's and good and what's not because the common thread is that every fan wants to see us back where we were 20 years ago ASAP.
 
#130
#130
Orange_Crush said:
Yah, yah, yah.

You've lost any semblance of objectivity or rational discourse.

Your argument has been that, unless we outrank everyone else on signing day, we can't beat them. Except when we do. And if we do, it's some cosmic force in our favor. But when we don't, it's because of recruiting rankings. And if we do, it's because of that guy who never recruiting ranked for us.

You have gone above and beyond to prove that you're not rationally thinking or arguing this. You just have a flawed argument that you are contorting yourself to preserve.

Knock yourself out, amigo.

I'll just say this... We will likely NEVER get where you need us to be for you to be happy. We will NEVER beat UGA, Bama, UF, TX, Oklahoma, or most SEC schools every year. No matter how much you put your trust in the ranking services and their numbers, UT will never give you what you apparently need.


Seriously, you don't just need to switch teams. You need to switch conferences and find something that'll have much less parity.
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You cannot use an outlier to prove a point. Look at Alabama recruiting for 15 years and Tennessee recruiting for 15 years then look at the head to head record. Seems pretty clear to me whoever wins in recruiting wins on the field 99% of the time. Same for Georgia same for Florida.

Again only an irrational person uses one outlier to try and prove a weak point. History shows if you can't outrecruit them there is a almost 100% chance you can't beat them.

Getting lucky and winning once in forever is not the same thing as building a better program and winning consistently or at all and not proving the worth of a head coach. Sorry it's just not.
 
#132
#132
UTFranklinVol said:
Yeah this is all good and well. My bigger concern is CJH isn't recruiting better than any of his predecessors. UT has been pretty easily able to land a 10 to 15 class ranking since Fulmer was fired. But in that same time the same few teams in the SEC out recruit us and the same few teams finish higher than us in the standings.

Anyway I know people know this stuff. I just wonder how excited Tennessee fans are compared to how excited Bama or Georgia or Texas or LSU or a few other fans bases are.

Hopefully this year was a fluke and we have a coach that can get us to the top quickly so we start landing top 4 recruiting classes every year and Bama and Georgia start to suck again.

People say this stuff doesn't matter but it clearly does.
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Basically, you just said that this staff is winning more games while recruiting at the same level as our previous coaches. I believe we're winning because Heupel is a better coach and he's recruiting much better.
 
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#134
#134
UTFranklinVol said:
Yes the averages matter but only in relation to your competitors in each given year.

We aren't trying to compete with last year's class. We are trying to compete with our competition in this year's class.

The only thing that matters is how we stack up against our competition now. Class size is not the reason Bama and Georgia and Texas and all the other SEC teams above us are ranked higher. The larger your class size, the more your class ranking should fall because there are way more 3 stars than 4 stars and way more 4 stars than 5 stars. We may be getting better, but if we aren't getting better than the teams we need to beat then what the hell does it matter?
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It kinda does matter class to class and the relation compared to what we were before.

If we are worried about getting BETTER, it absolutely matters that this class is higher ranked than previous years. assuming the recruiting rankings hold true.

Our composite talent ranking for 2023 is 89.32. so our current 2024 class ranking of 91.37 is a pretty marked improvement. for reference our current composite talent (89.32) would be equivalent to having the 400th or so player as our average. 91.37 would be somewhere around the 200th best player. that is a huge improvement.

For reference we are improving against our foes too. Georgia and Bama have seemingly hit the glass ceiling and can't get that much better. so even if they have the best class they aren't separating themselves from the pack any more than they currently are. in fact Bama is taking a step back as of this moment. and Georgia's improvement is very slight. if Florida keeps their class together it will be a big improvement but recent trends aren't looking good for them with at least 1 more top guy expected not to sign with them. long term its even worse especially if Napier flops again and gets fired.

Bama composite talent = 94.49, this class = 92.73 (-1.76)
Georgia composite talent = 93.00, this class = 93.31 (+.31)
Florida composite is = 89.39, this class 92.00. (+2.61)
Tennessee composite = 89.32, this class 91.37 (+2.05)

again we aren't going to pass any one as of yet, but we are improving more than they are except for Florida.

We "were" 5.17 behind Bama, we are currently 1.36.
We "were" 3.68 behind Georgia, we are currently 1.94
we "were" 0.07 behind Florida, we are currently 0.56
 
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#135
#135
Wonder if Freak is gonna have a signing day post pinned? Rhetorical. Of course he will.
 
#136
#136
LouderVol said:
It kinda does matter class to class and the relation compared to what we were before.

If we are worried about getting BETTER, it absolutely matters that this class is higher ranked than previous years. assuming the recruiting rankings hold true.

Our composite talent ranking for 2023 is 89.32. so our current 2024 class ranking of 91.37 is a pretty marked improvement. for reference our current composite talent (89.32) would be equivalent to having the 400th or so player as our average. 91.37 would be somewhere around the 200th best player. that is a huge improvement.

For reference we are improving against our foes too. Georgia and Bama have seemingly hit the glass ceiling and can't get that much better. so even if they have the best class they aren't separating themselves from the pack any more than they currently are. in fact Bama is taking a step back as of this moment. and Georgia's improvement is very slight. if Florida keeps their class together it will be a big improvement but recent trends aren't looking good for them with at least 1 more top guy expected not to sign with them. long term its even worse especially if Napier flops again and gets fired.

Bama composite talent = 94.49, this class = 92.73 (-1.76)
Georgia composite talent = 93.00, this class = 93.31 (+.31)
Florida composite is = 89.39, this class 92.00. (+2.61)
Tennessee composite = 89.32, this class 91.37 (+2.05)

again we aren't going to pass any one as of yet, but we are improving more than they are except for Florida.

We "were" 5.17 behind Bama, we are currently 1.36.
We "were" 3.68 behind Georgia, we are currently 1.94
we "were" 0.07 behind Florida, we are currently 0.56
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Don’t use composite. He doesn’t believe in composite score, only how many stars they have and what rank they are. In his his eyes it’s not better to be ranked 14th with 19 committed, versus 13th with 24 committed, etc.

He’ll just blah, blah, blah without considering what has been accomplished with lesser talent. And we had a lot of injuries this year with no talent as back up. So we played a **** ton of inexperienced players.

17 sophomores and juniors on this team tells one all they need to know about what CJH was left with. I’m going to use my least favorite feature on VolNation and drown out this imbecile.
 
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#137
#137
Orange_Crush said:
See, I'll take slight issue here. Most of Pruett's quality recruits, as well as previous class recruits, transferred out when he left. Speaking from memory, CJH inherited a 67 player roster and a class that he had to tightrope to try to hold together. His '21 class had 4 4-stars and 10 3-stars.

I would argue (recruiting classes aside, his actual) roster for roster, CJH most likely out-coached and beat several teams with superior rosters than his. Add that to the fact that he beat Bam and UF in his second year, and it gives me indication that he doesn't have to out-rank others on signing day to beat them.

In any event, Pruet did NOT leave CJH in position to beat many teams on our schedule.
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Just replying to a poster who compared this year’s recruiting class no better than Jones and Pruett’s classes. I was saying Jones‘ was actually dood enough to beak Ok and win the East if he could coach. Pruett recruited good enough to have Hooker and other NFL guys on the 22 roster. In other words, I’ll take those kind of classes and better coaching.
 
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#138
#138
a vol n tears said:
Just replying to a poster who compared this year’s recruiting class no better than Jones and Pruett’s classes. I was saying Jones‘ was actually dood enough to beak Ok and win the East if he could coach. Pruett recruited good enough to have Hooker and other NFL guys on the 22 roster. In other words, I’ll take those kind of classes and better coaching.
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All good. I apologize, as my major points in that post weren't directed at you, although I quoted you.
 
#141
#141
Fatman Photos said:
Other than the first two or three teams the recruiting is very close. 3rd or 4th through 10th are pretty much equal, just look at the average player rating. Tennessee at 14th (20 comments and a 91.37 rating) and FSU at 4th (23 comments and a 91.93 Rating) are pretty much equal.
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Careful……That could be considered positive
 
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#142
#142
UTFranklinVol said:
You cannot use an outlier to prove a point. Look at Alabama recruiting for 15 years and Tennessee recruiting for 15 years then look at the head to head record. Seems pretty clear to me whoever wins in recruiting wins on the field 99% of the time. Same for Georgia same for Florida.

Again only an irrational person uses one outlier to try and prove a weak point. History shows if you can't outrecruit them there is a almost 100% chance you can't beat them.

Getting lucky and winning once in forever is not the same thing as building a better program and winning consistently or at all and not proving the worth of a head coach. Sorry it's just not.
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So you don't think we're a better program now? Laughable.
 
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#144
#144
I read all the post about our recruiting or lack of it in some eyes and I ask one question. Of all the teams in the country how many do you think could go undefeated playing a regular SEC schedule year in and year out ? Not many if any. Yes we have a few teams that are so so but most play a VERY high caliber of football.

I have a neighbor that moved here from California and he was talking about the SEC when he moved here and was saying the usual blah blah blah. I told him to just watch and pay attention to the talent and speed on the field. After about three weeks he said it was unbelievable and he just couldn't believe what he was seeing. That is what we play against just about every week , it's just tough to climb back where we once were when we had fallen so far back. Like it or not it will be easy and it will take time and the NIL deals will make it tougher.
 
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#145
#145
LouderVol said:
It kinda does matter class to class and the relation compared to what we were before.

If we are worried about getting BETTER, it absolutely matters that this class is higher ranked than previous years. assuming the recruiting rankings hold true.

Our composite talent ranking for 2023 is 89.32. so our current 2024 class ranking of 91.37 is a pretty marked improvement. for reference our current composite talent (89.32) would be equivalent to having the 400th or so player as our average. 91.37 would be somewhere around the 200th best player. that is a huge improvement.

For reference we are improving against our foes too. Georgia and Bama have seemingly hit the glass ceiling and can't get that much better. so even if they have the best class they aren't separating themselves from the pack any more than they currently are. in fact Bama is taking a step back as of this moment. and Georgia's improvement is very slight. if Florida keeps their class together it will be a big improvement but recent trends aren't looking good for them with at least 1 more top guy expected not to sign with them. long term its even worse especially if Napier flops again and gets fired.

Bama composite talent = 94.49, this class = 92.73 (-1.76)
Georgia composite talent = 93.00, this class = 93.31 (+.31)
Florida composite is = 89.39, this class 92.00. (+2.61)
Tennessee composite = 89.32, this class 91.37 (+2.05)

again we aren't going to pass any one as of yet, but we are improving more than they are except for Florida.

We "were" 5.17 behind Bama, we are currently 1.36.
We "were" 3.68 behind Georgia, we are currently 1.94
we "were" 0.07 behind Florida, we are currently 0.56
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Nice write up
 
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#147
#147
MarcoVol said:
Can’t say that’s the reality. What if we go 9-3 for two years of Nico and then Merk or GMac get us to 10 or 11 the following year or two and we’re in?

Acting like Nico is the only good QB we’ll ever have when Heup is our coach doesn’t make sense.
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Might make two cents.
 
#149
#149
As an old man who has watched the Vols all my life I just do not understand. With all our fan base, wonderful facilities, and all the intangibles that the likes of Georgia, Alabama etc. have I just have one simple question........................Why in the name of God cannot we recruit the 5 star players just like all the blue bloods do? We have much more than most, and just as much at the top teams. Two or three 5 stars every 4 or5 years. When half of their rosters are full of 5 and 4 stars. Never, will I understand it.
 
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