Cancer is a product of industrial environment

#26
#26
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm not going to even comment on the Cuban model...

As far as cancer being at higher rates now than before... meh, not really losing any sleep on that. 150 or so years ago, measles, small pox and the flu killed people and made life expectancies in the 40 or early 50's.

Like I said, it is a trade off. You gain a little here, lose a little there. You can't get something for nothing. Conservation of energy, etc.
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This is really steeped in the Man thinking. I know you have more imagination than that.

Industrialization had ZERO to do with combating the diseases which afflicted mankind for so long. ZERO. Just look at the malaria figures. I believe malaria is still the #2 cause of death for 1 - 10 year olds in the world.

Life expectancies are a red herring here. Today, CHILDREN are being afflicted at an ever increasing rate.

I like your conservation of energy analogy though. Cuba, in food production, went back to those equations and came up with a model that is working, and working brilliantly, after their industial agriculture collapsed when Soviet oil stopped coming.
 
#27
#27
utfantilidie said:
Having two parents that died of cancer, the fight against cancer is improving, although just be prepared to either be put in a free study program and or in some cases mortgage your house to obtain drugs most people can't afford or it is too late by the time you get approved by insurance to pay for drugs you need.
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Man, that must be rough, utfan. I feel for you.
 
#28
#28
utgibbs said:
Ran across this report, and the ES is just shocking.

41% of all Americans will be diagnosed with cancer. 21% will die.

Cancer increasing among children.

"The Panel’s recommendations delineate concrete actions that governments; industry; the research, health care, and advocacy communities; and individuals can take to reduce cancer risk related to environmental contaminants, excess radiation, and other harmful exposures." [my emphasis]

I'm not sure there is a more compelling reason to reboot our culture and our lives.
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You first.

Interesting in light of liberal compulsion to regulate every aspect of American life: Profession with most exposure to "harmful" radiation over a career? Airline Pilot. Profession with the lowest incidence of cancer? Airline Pilot.

The moral of the story is that you guys have no idea how to run everyone else's lives... so please stop trying.
 
#29
#29
sjt18 said:
You first.

Interesting in light of liberal compulsion to regulate every aspect of American life: Profession with most exposure to "harmful" radiation over a career? Airline Pilot. Profession with the lowest incidence of cancer? Airline Pilot.

The moral of the story is that you guys have no idea how to run everyone else's lives... so please stop trying.
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What are you talking about?
 
#31
#31
utgibbs said:
Again, I'm not the one ready to roll back the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment principles have allowed us to have a planet with nearing 7 billion inhabitants. Nothing else.

And again, if you want to go into a Marxist debate on whether we had to industrialize to deindustrialize, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not with Marx on historical determinism, but you are welcome to be.

I made mention of the Cuban model as far as food production. Read up on it; very interesting, very unique, and veritably, I believe, a model for the future.

Cancer has been around forever, but not at a 41% of the population clip. It was more like 0.1%.
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I certainly hope you were joking when you proposed Cuba as a model economy, but I'm relatively certain that you weren't, comrade.
 
#32
#32
utgibbs said:
Industrialization had ZERO to do with combating the diseases which afflicted mankind for so long. ZERO. Just look at the malaria figures. I believe malaria is still the #2 cause of death for 1 - 10 year olds in the world.
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Not sure how you can make this claim with a straight face. At a bare minimum, industrialization has resulted in ultra-cheap and widely available drugs that save millions of lives and treat millions of ailments that caused serious problems.

Likewise, at a bare minimum it has resulted in distribution systems and technologies that make treatment more widely available than ever before.

Not sure how the malaria info is relevant unless you are claiming industrialization has increased the rate/severity of malaria.
 
#33
#33
funny how countries with great healthcare like cuba lead the world in malaria.
 
#35
#35
utgibbs said:
Sure.

What does that have to do with regulating lives exactly?
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I would imagine it's your continual pleas to de-industrialize, de-capitalize, de-consumerize so that everyone will live the way you think they should live -- and be miraculously cancer free as a result.
 
#36
#36
volinbham said:
Not sure how you can make this claim with a straight face. At a bare minimum, industrialization has resulted in ultra-cheap and widely available drugs that save millions of lives and treat millions of ailments that caused serious problems.
Likewise, at a bare minimum it has resulted in distribution systems and technologies that make treatment more widely available than ever before.

Not sure how the malaria info is relevant unless you are claiming industrialization has increased the rate/severity of malaria.
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Which "ultra-cheap" drugs do you speak of? I'll give you a little warning - most of the "miracle drugs" were discovered with government programs - be that universities or funding.

Despite these distribution networks and technologies, malaria, an easily curable disease (with one of those "miracle" drugs), is still the #2 child killer in the world.
 
#37
#37
utgibbs said:
Which "ultra-cheap" drugs do you speak of? I'll give you a little warning - most of the "miracle drugs" were discovered with government programs - be that universities or funding.

I'll give you a little warning - without industrialization those labs wouldn't have had all the equipment they need to do discover and those discoveries would still be sitting in those universities.

Despite these distribution networks and technologies, malaria, an easily curable disease (with one of those "miracle" drugs), is still the #2 child killer in the world.
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So industrialization is bad since it hasn't stopped malaria? Sound logic.
 
#38
#38
volinbham said:
I would imagine it's your continual pleas to de-industrialize, de-capitalize, de-consumerize so that everyone will live the way you think they should live -- and be miraculously cancer free as a result.
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Is this like a natural reflex with all of you?

utgibbs: "We can do things better, smarter!"

Radical Right Wing of VN: "Socialist! Stop trying to control our lives!"

I can't believe the number of people on here ready to fight for cheap tat and cancer! Lord, what a failure of the imagination. And we think "human ingenuity" will bring us from the brink?

In some of the posts on here, I have absolutely no faith, and with some good reasons.
 
#39
#39
Malaria is still killing children because people like gibbs were successful in having DDT outlawed.
 
#40
#40
utgibbs said:
Is this like a natural reflex with all of you?

utgibbs: "We can do things better, smarter!"

Radical Right Wing of VN: "Socialist! Stop trying to control our lives!"

I can't believe the number of people on here ready to fight for cheap tat and cancer! Lord, what a failure of the imagination. And we think "human ingenuity" will bring us from the brink?

In some of the posts on here, I have absolutely no faith, and with some good reasons.
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your we can do things better, smarter always involves government, always demonizes Capitalism and always prescribes how people should live their lives.

you seem to have a failure of imagination since your solutions always have the same core.
 
#44
#44
volinbham said:
So industrialization is bad since it hasn't stopped malaria? Sound logic.
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And increased poverty and destitution.

And increased inequality.

And decreased sustainability.

And hasn't stopped malaria.

And a host of other things.

Again, I'm not trying to roll back the Enlightenment. I'm a technology guy. However, all technology has a political and social conotation. I'm simply in favor of applying the gifts of the Enlightment in different ways.

I'm not going to fight for cancer and cheap tat. It is a profound failure of the imagination. I'm curious exactly how sold out to the Man most of you are that you do seem willing to fight for these things.
 
#45
#45
utgibbs said:
And increased poverty and destitution.

And increased inequality.

And decreased sustainability.

And hasn't stopped malaria.

And a host of other things.

Again, I'm not trying to roll back the Enlightenment. I'm a technology guy. However, all technology has a political and social conotation. I'm simply in favor of applying the gifts of the Enlightment in different ways.

I'm not going to fight for cancer and cheap tat. It is a profound failure of the imagination. I'm curious exactly how sold out to the Man most of you are that you do seem willing to fight for these things.
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It really improved all of those things.
 
#46
#46
utgibbs said:
And increased poverty and destitution.

And increased inequality.

And decreased sustainability.

And hasn't stopped malaria.

And a host of other things.

Again, I'm not trying to roll back the Enlightenment. I'm a technology guy. However, all technology has a political and social conotation. I'm simply in favor of applying the gifts of the Enlightment in different ways.

I'm not going to fight for cancer and cheap tat. It is a profound failure of the imagination. I'm curious exactly how sold out to the Man most of you are that you do seem willing to fight for these things.
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vague words.

tell us what the de-industrialized but technologically enlightened world will look like since I can't imagine it.
 
#47
#47
Volst53 said:
Malaria hits areas with little industrialization the hardest.
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Right. Areas where natural wealth was extracted, the populations oppressed by colonialism for generations, in order that industrialization could be conducted elsewhere.

How could you not know that was coming?
 
#48
#48
They can't cure the common cold, and they are worried about where cancer originates?? Seems to me cancer originates where it chooses. Cells can mutate without anything causing it. It just happens, with or without help from outside sources. Sure, there are outside influences that cause issues, but what are you going to tell the smokers that never have it or emphysema?? Some people get it, some people don't, it's just the way it works. I really wish people would start enjoying life, instead of trying to figure out why it goes wrong.
 
#49
#49
volinbham said:
vague words.

tell us what the de-industrialized but technologically enlightened world will look like since I can't imagine it.
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As I said, a failure of the imagination.

I can't wait to see the slogans of the future:

CHEAP TAT AND CANCER! To the breach, comrades!

Wait, we have them today on VN.
 
#50
#50
utgibbs said:
Right. Areas where natural wealth was extracted, the populations oppressed by colonialism for generations, in order that industrialization could be conducted elsewhere.

How could you not know that was coming?
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you do realize that modern science is what allowed many of these areas to be populated in teh first place right?
 
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