Church and State

#51
#51
(MyBloodRunnethOrange @ Jul 8 said:
In the case of statuatory rape, one could make the case that it is consensual, but the government has set 18 as the age of consent, which seems reasonable.

I doubt that the victim of a human sacrifice would consider it his duty to die for some bloodthirsty god image.
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Why is 18 a reasonable age?

As to your second statement, you are blind if you don't see that.
 
#52
#52
(therealUT @ Jul 8 said:
Why is 18 a reasonable age?

As to your second statement, you are blind if you don't see that.
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So, 5 year olds should be able to sign contracts and join the military?
 
#53
#53
They do at 11 in Iran...

Whether one likes it or not, a society adapts their morals from a fundamentally accepted institution. In the Middle East, this institution is Islam. In India, it is Hinduism and Catholocism. Europe and the United States, Judeo-Christian. To take Judeo-Christian norms and values out of our government one brick at a time will eventually cause our government to collapse.
 
#54
#54
(therealUT @ Jul 8 said:
They do at 11 in Iran...

Whether one likes it or not, a society adapts their morals from a fundamentally accepted institution. In the Middle East, this institution is Islam. In India, it is Hinduism and Catholocism. Europe and the United States, Judeo-Christian. To take Judeo-Christian norms and values out of our government one brick at a time will eventually cause our government to collapse.
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Oh, so now Iran is a model we should follow.
 
#55
#55
Not at all. We follow a Judeo-Christian model. However, if you reject, as mybloodrunnethorange does, basing any government action on Christian values, then, why 18 or why not 5 or 11?
 
#56
#56
(therealUT @ Jul 8 said:
Not at all. We follow a Judeo-Christian model. However, if you reject, as mybloodrunnethorange does, basing any government action on Christian values, then, why 18 or why not 5 or 11?
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Why is considering one a legal adult at 18 a Judeo-Christian value? There are plenty of christian denominations that have no problems with persons under that age marrying. It would seem to me that 18 is a reasonable starting point arrived at by the duly elected secular government.
 
#58
#58
Because the western world schooling system and university system was established by the Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire in Europe. 18 is the normal age at which one is done with their schooling, and therefore has enough knowledge to enter into the adult world.
 
#60
#60
(therealUT @ Jul 8 said:
Any more meatballs to lob over the plate for me Hat?
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I really like how you give remotely responsive answers to the question, then thump your chest. You certainly fit right in with most of the religious zealots in America today. When can we expect to see Inquisitions and Crusades here in the US? Aren't intolerance and piety the two main Judeo-Christian values?
 
#61
#61
Tell me during the Inquisition, exactly how many people the Catholic church had executed, Hat?

And, when you find that out, maybe you will learn not to speak out of your 4th point of contact anymore.
 
#62
#62
Since you seem to be having a hard time finding the numbers, I will provide them for you...

The Spanish Inquisition lasted for 350 years and there were 4,000 casualties. On the grand scale of attrocities, it does not even register!
 
#63
#63
(therealUT @ Jul 8 said:
Tell me during the Inquisition, exactly how many people the Catholic church had executed, Hat?

And, when you find that out, maybe you will learn not to speak out of your 4th point of contact anymore.
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Or compare the pitiful Inquisition with the millions killed by atheist dictators who belived the state was supreme.
 
#64
#64
(therealUT @ Jul 8 said:
Tell me during the Inquisition, exactly how many people the Catholic church had executed, Hat?

And, when you find that out, maybe you will learn not to speak out of your 4th point of contact anymore.
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That's a neat trick. The church turns a blind eye as governments do things in their name, then claims no responsibility. Clever semantical arguement, it doesn't work on those of us not in the cult. The Catholic Church certainly didn't intervene or protest as the Spanish government slaughtered Jews and Muslims in the name of religious purity, now did they? But, what would you expect? They didn't exactly concern themselves with the Nazis slaughtering Jews either. They've got children to molest and money to count, they can't be bothered with trivialities like genocide.
 
#65
#65
Yeah, Boo Inquisition...killed about 11 people a year. Hitler, Stalin, PolPot, Mao, Milosovich. The worst Catholic atrocity, 11 people per year. Compared to the great atheists, who account for 86,000,000 in 60 years, or for those mathematically challenged folks out there, over 1.4 million per year.
 
#66
#66
(therealUT @ Jul 8 said:
Since you seem to be having a hard time finding the numbers, I will provide them for you...

The Spanish Inquisition lasted for 350 years and there were 4,000 casualties. On the grand scale of attrocities, it does not even register!
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That's strange, the book on Spain in advance of my trip to Madrid in January lists the number at roughly 3-4 times that many. So, killing in the name of the church is OK as long as the body count doesn't get too high? That's interesting. I bet the Taliban would like you to do their PR.
 
#67
#67
(hatvol96 @ Jul 8 said:
That's a neat trick. The church turns a blind eye as governments do things in their name, then claims no responsibility. Clever semantical arguement, it doesn't work on those of us not in the cult. The Catholic Church certainly didn't intervene or protest as the Spanish government slaughtered Jews and Muslims in the name of religious purity, now did they? But, what would you expect? They didn't exactly concern themselves with the Nazis slaughtering Jews either. They've got children to molest and money to count, they can't be bothered with trivialities like genocide.
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3 MILLION CATHOLICS WERE SLAUGHTERED AT AUSCHWITZ ALONE! THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS VERY VOCAL AGAINST HITLER AND THE NAZI REGIME. AGAIN, DO NOT SPEAK OUT OF YOUR *SS ON SUCH MATTERS HAT
 
#68
#68
(therealUT @ Jul 8 said:
3 MILLION CATHOLICS WERE SLAUGHTERED AT AUSCHWITZ ALONE! THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS VERY VOCAL AGAINST HITLER AND THE NAZI REGIME. AGAIN, DO NOT SPEAK OUT OF YOUR *SS ON SUCH MATTERS HAT
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Uh, no they weren't. In fact, the country with one of the highest concentration of Roman Catholics, Italy, teamed up with Hitler. I guess that was Mussolini completely overrunning popular will? No. It was the Catholic Church and many of its followers playing to form and worshipping at the altar of their true God, Power.
 
#69
#69
(hatvol96 @ Jul 8 said:
That's strange, the book on Spain in advance of my trip to Madrid in January lists the number at roughly 3-4 times that many. So, killing in the name of the church is OK as long as the body count doesn't get too high? That's interesting. I bet the Taliban would like you to do their PR.
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Well, I will take the words of Henry Kamen The Spanish Inquisition Yale University Press and Will Durant The Reformation MJF Books over your book on Spain, anyday.
 
#70
#70
(therealUT @ Jul 8 said:
Well, I will take the words of Henry Kamen The Spanish Inquisition Yale University Press and Will Durant The Reformation MJF Books over your book on Spain, anyday.
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Of course you will, they support your position. If that's the case, I'll go with the numbers provided by anti-Catholic scholars and say it was actually 10-20 times the figure you cited. Some Muslim writers have placed the number at around 500,000. Probably nowhere near accurate, but I like it. So I say they're right.
 
#71
#71
(hatvol96 @ Jul 8 said:
Uh, no they weren't. In fact, the country with one of the highest concentration of Roman Catholics, Italy, teamed up with Hitler. I guess that was Mussolini completely overrunning popular will? No. It was the Catholic Church and many of its followers playing to form and worshipping at the altar of their true God, Power.
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In 1967, Israeli diplomat Pinchas Lapide estimated that Pope Pius XII

was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands.
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Three million Catholics were systematically murdered, including thousands of Priests, at Auschwitz. Papal diplomacy and underground assistance were more effective at saving Jewish lives from the Nazis than they were at saving Catholic lives.

It was the Soviet Communists who began the disinformation after the Second World War that Pope Pius XII had been a Nazi collaborator.
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Jews, whatever their feelings about the Catholic Church, have a duty to reject any attempt to usurp the Holocaust and use it for partisan purposes in such a debate--particularly when the attempt disparages the testimony of Holocaust survivors and spreads to inappropriate figures the condemnation that belongs to Hitler and the Nazis. The Talmud teaches that "whosoever preserves one life, it is accounted to him by Scripture as if he had preserved the whole world." More than any other twentieth-century leader, Pius fulfilled this Talmudic dictum, when the fate of the European Jewry was at stake. No other pope had been so widely praised by Jews--and they were not mistaken. Their gratitude, as well as that of the entire generation of Holocaust survivors, testifies that Pius XII was genuinely and profoundly a righteous gentile.

--Rabbi David G. Dalin
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#72
#72
(hatvol96 @ Jul 8 said:
Of course you will, they support your position. If that's the case, I'll go with the numbers provided by anti-Catholic scholars and say it was actually 10-20 times the figure you cited. Some Muslim writers have placed the number at around 500,000. Probably nowhere near accurate, but I like it. So I say they're right.
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Hey Hat, even if it was 500,000...over 350 years that still doesn't register on the world stage when discussing atrocities. Nice try though. You have to be the most ignorant lawyer I have ever had a discussion with.
 
#73
#73
(therealUT @ Jul 8 said:
Hey Hat, even if it was 500,000...over 350 years that still doesn't register on the world stage when discussing atrocities. Nice try though. You have to be the most ignorant lawyer I have ever had a discussion with.
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If a religious zealot like you finds me ignorant, I can think of no greater compliment. You have made my night.
 
#74
#74
So, stating facts regarding the history of a religion is now considered to be zealotry?
 
#75
#75
(therealUT @ Jul 8 said:
Hey Hat, even if it was 500,000...over 350 years that still doesn't register on the world stage when discussing atrocities. Nice try though. You have to be the most ignorant lawyer I have ever had a discussion with.
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My favorite part of this is that the Catholic Kool Aid Crowd finds nothing disturbing about a 350 year campaign of forced conversion, land theft, and slaughter.
 
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