Church and State

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Where the 14th comes into play is the equal protection clause. For example, if you are going to allow a 50 ton replica of the ten commandments to be placed on the grounds of the Supreme Court, then other religions need to be allowed to place replicas of their sacred texts as well.

On a side note, I've never understood why christians get so bent out of shape over a graven image, made to honor a set of sacred commandments which clearly include a commandment not to make graven images. :dunno:

Very touchy subject for you is it not? Bad church experience(s)?

More than I care to count.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

First, it wasn't half a million. Historians agree between 3,000 and 5,000. The lowest estimate being 1,900. Also, read the Greek and Hebrew translations of the Bible and the commandment is "Thou Shall Not Murder."
And finally, the executions were carried out by the Spanish Royalty, loosely interpreting an edict from Pope Sixtus.

Please, educate yourself.

I have educated myself. Perhaps you should take your own advice.

It dosen't matter if it was 5000 or 500,000. We're talking about people being murdered for their beliefs, or to be more precise, because of accusations made against them that their beliefs were wrong. The victims never had a chance to defend themselves. The inquisitors were chosen by the pope himself, and were given the power of judge and jury. The used some of the most cruel and inhumane torture ever known in the history of mankind to force a confession, then they would turn them over to the civil athorities to carry out the judgement of the inquistion, usually burning at the stake. Of course, the civil athoroties had no choice but to carry out the sentence of the inquisition or face the inquisition themselves.

 

[therealUT]

Forced confessions? Don't you believe they would have executed more than 5,000 people had they had confessions. Since, the Spanish Inquisitors had brought before them for their examination over 150,000 subjects. What is that, 5,000/150,000...a 3.33% conviction rate. Ghastly!

 

[volinbham]

On a side note, I've never understood why christians get so bent out of shape over a graven image, made to honor a set of sacred commandments which clearly include a commandment not to make graven images. :dunno:

The commandment is to not make graven images of God. It says nothing about images, symbols etc. of God's laws. It has more to do with worshiping idols instead of worshiping God.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

50 ton replica of the ten commandments

Honestly, how big would that be?

More than I care to count.

I am sorry to hear that.................I have been through some of my own.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

The commandment is to not make graven images of God.

You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (Exodus 20:4, NKJV)

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Forced confessions? Don't you believe they would have executed more than 5,000 people had they had confessions. Since, the Spanish Inquisitors had brought before them for their examination over 150,000 subjects. What is that, 5,000/150,000...a 3.33% conviction rate. Ghastly!

What is the source of your numbers realUT?

 

[therealUT]

You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (Exodus 20:4, NKJV)

Your problem is you take things out of context.

I, the Lord, amd your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous* God, inflicting punishment for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Exodus 20:2-6

*Jealous: demanding exclusive allegiance, such as a wife must have for her husband.

You, MyBloodRunnethOrange, are a perfect example of why only clergy and the educated were allowed to own and read the Bible by the Catholic Church until after the protestant reformation.

 

[therealUT]

What is the source of your numbers realUT?

I have already explained my sources in this post. However, you can pretty much search "Spanish Inquisition" and find much less academic and historical numbers, which still hold anywhere from 3,000 to 5,000 (except for 1,900) executed and anywhere from 100,000 to 150,000 tried.

 

[hatvol96]

Your problem is you take things out of context.
You, MyBloodRunnethOrange, are a perfect example of why only clergy and the educated were allowed to own and read the Bible by the Catholic Church until after the protestant reformation.

You, the therealUT, are a perfect example of why most rational thinkers have no use for organized religion.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Your problem is you take things out of context.

And your problem is that you have no sense of humor. The graven image post was halfway tounge-in-cheek, but apparently you don't have the ability to pick up things like that.

You, MyBloodRunnethOrange, are a perfect example of why only clergy and the educated were allowed to own and read the Bible by the Catholic Church until after the protestant reformation.

The clergy were the only ones allowed to read the bible simply as a way to control people.

You, therealUT, are a perfect example of somebody who relies on others to tell you what to think. You're the perfect yes-man.

 

[therealUT]

You, the therealUT, are a perfect example of why most rational thinkers have no use for organized religion.

And who would those rational thinkers be? Voltiare? Nope. Catholic. Galileo? No, again. Catholic. Copernicus? Again, Catholic. Newton? Early Anglican.

Maybe Einstein? Nope, because this quote belongs to him

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

Thanks Hat.

 

[therealUT]

And your problem is that you have no sense of humor. The graven image post was halfway tounge-in-cheek, but apparently you don't have the ability to pick up things like that.


The clergy were the only ones allowed to read the bible simply as a way to control people.

You, therealUT, are a perfect example of somebody who relies on others to tell you what to think. You're the perfect yes-man.

If standing up for my faith and my God, makes me a "yes man," then I couldn't be more proud.

 

[hatvol96]

And who would those rational thinkers be? Voltiare? Nope. Catholic. Galileo? No, again. Catholic. Copernicus? Again, Catholic. Newton? Early Anglican.

Maybe Einstein? Nope, because this quote belongs to him
Thanks Hat.

To list all the rational thinkers through history who find organized religion is a sham would take far more time than I care to expend debating with a cultist like yourself. Suffice it to say, if one goes through the history of science, philosophy, medicine, and poilitical thought, you may find that the leaders in those fields have faith, you will find scant evidence that they were remotely comparable to the the illogical, Bible thumping rubes who have attempted to hijack American society in the last 15 years. Your inability to separate faith from organized religion is telling. OWB has you pegged just right.

 

[volinbham]

You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (Exodus 20:4, NKJV)

That pretty much rules out any image of anything.

Try this version:

You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;
5
2 you shall not bow down before them or worship them

You can carve anything you want as long as you are not worshiping it in lieu of God. The Ten Commandments are God's laws (according to the Bible) so no problemo

 

[hatvol96]

That pretty much rules out any image of anything.

According to the fundamentalist intelligencia, that would simply mean we shouldn't create images. Didn't you get the memo about how we are to take the Bible literally? Jonah really lived in a whale's belly, the Red Sea parted, etc. Those aren't parables meant to impart important lessons, they're facts.

 

[therealUT]

To list all the rational thinkers through history who find organized religion is a sham would take far more time than I care to expend debating with a cultist like yourself. Suffice it to say, if one goes through the history of science, philosophy, medicine, and poilitical thought, you may find that the leaders in those fields have faith, you will find scant evidence that they were remotely comparable to the the illogical, Bible thumping rubes who have attempted to hijack American society in the last 15 years. Your inability to separate faith from organized religion is telling. OWB has you pegged just right.

Haven't I stated in this very thread that the Bible should not be taken literally? So, that argument of yours goes out the window. I also just stated that The Church had a policy of keeping Bibles out of the hands of rubes for the very reason that the Catholic Church in its wisdom understood that there were people out there that were too ignorant to be able to comprehend, on a wholistic level, the message of the Bible.

I will wholeheartedly agree with you that many "Christians" have taken much of the Bible out of context and the way they use it is just as appalling to me as it is to you.

However, I will not back away from established facts, like the actual death toll of the Spanish Inquisition and the Catholic Churches role in trying to stop the Holocaust, and how many Catholics perished due to that. I will most certainly not back away in order to appease you or to make the world seem more pleasant for you.

 

[therealUT]

According to the fundamentalist intelligencia, that would simply mean we shouldn't create images. Didn't you get the memo about how we are to take the Bible literally? Jonah really lived in a whale's belly, the Red Sea parted, etc. Those aren't parables meant to impart important lessons, they're facts.

Genesis itself is an alleghory, as are many other Old Testament books. This has been the official stance of the Catholic Church since Peter.

 

[hatvol96]

Genesis itself is an alleghory, as are many other Old Testament books. This has been the official stance of the Catholic Church since Peter.

While I certainly am not the President of the Papacy's Fan Club, I don't consider the Catholic Church part of what I called the fundamentalist intelligencia.

 

[therealUT]

While I certainly am not the President of the Papacy's Fan Club, I don't consider the Catholic Church part of what I called the fundamentalist intelligencia.

Thank you, neither do I.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Haven't I stated in this very thread that the Bible should not be taken literally? So, that argument of yours goes out the window. I also just stated that The Church had a policy of keeping Bibles out of the hands of rubes for the very reason that the Catholic Church in its wisdom understood that there were people out there that were too ignorant to be able to comprehend, on a wholistic level, the message of the Bible.

First of all, you state that the bible should not be taken literally, then call anyone who dosen't agree with your interpretation a rube too ignorant to comprehend it.

I will wholeheartedly agree with you that many "Christians" have taken much of the Bible out of context and the way they use it is just as appalling to me as it is to you.

I'm glad to hear it.

However, I will not back away from established facts, like the actual death toll of the Spanish Inquisition and the Catholic Churches role in trying to stop the Holocaust, and how many Catholics perished due to that. I will most certainly not back away in order to appease you or to make the world seem more pleasant for you.

For the second time, care to share your source for those numbers?

 

[therealUT]

Well, I will take the words of Henry Kamen The Spanish Inquisition Yale University Press and Will Durant The Reformation MJF Books over your book on Spain, anyday.

For the second time, MyBloodRunnethOrange, check the thread to see that I cited the Spanish Inquisition numbers to these authors and these books.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

For the second time, MyBloodRunnethOrange, check the thread to see that I cited the Spanish Inquisition numbers to these authors and these books.

My bad. I missed that post.

 

[jdsa]

Now the 14th doesn’t list the rights it’s seeking to protect because the authors wished to protect ALL personal rights, especially I think voting rights…so the First is not listed.

Thanks for the source list. I didn't mean to come across as a pedant; I just wanted to know who, more or less, was responsible for the ideas you were presenting.

When you say "protect all personal rights," doesn't that include the bill of rights? Or based on my much less well researched position, I read the 14th that as bringing in the EC and all the others taken at face value.