Coaching vs Talent.

#26
#26
For a team to win consistinly you not only need tallent and coaching but a team that buys in. How many times have you seen a team with all the tallent in the world quit on a coach? The last few years we weren't a top tier SEC team but we had the tallent with Bray, Hunter, Rogers and Patterson to beat Kentucky and Vandy. The team quit on CDD plain and simple. USC had quit on Kiffen. they loved playing for ED and it showed in their record. You can't win without both coaches and players on a consistent basis.

Lots of times superior tallent will cover up bad coaching but when that team comes up against a tallented team with good coaching they're in trouble.
 
#27
#27
Dougie_D said:
Pick 1.

Regarding TN and SEC.

Final Decision.

No reason.

"It all comes down to..."

COACHING
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Then why do these coaches devote endless amounts of their lives trying to get the most top rated athletes to their respected programs? If they just need a breathing pulse out there on the field...just sign up some kids from Alcoa, Fulton, and so on here close by and be done with it.

But if they are not tall enough you run into the chance of this...

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#28
#28
KingtUT said:
Give me talent everyday. You can win a lot of games with talent and talent alone. Case in point.......LSU and Les Miles.
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Gary Pinkel and James Franklin say hello.


But to the point of the OP, if you want to be an elite program you cannot "pick 1". You must have both. This is even more important at UT than in a talent rich state like GA, FL, LA, etc.

Jones is recruiting elite talent right now. He and his staff did not prove this year that they are good enough coaches to win in the SEC. There's no treading water.... Either they start coaching better and rise and continue to get good recruits or they don't and lose the ability to make recruits believe in them. There is not and will not be any time soon enough talent in TN for UT to build championship teams with instate players alone. If they want elite national recruits... they have to be known as an elite staff.
 
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#30
#30
VinylVols said:
Coaching any day. But this doesn't apply to every team. But for tennessee, theyre bound to get good talent every year just because of their name, so i'd take coaching. We've had a lot of talent for years and havent made a bowl game in 3 years, so definitely coaching.
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NFL scouts have said Tennessee was the slowest team they had seen in the SEC in over 10 years. Coaching was supposed to make up for that??

grossly under talented
 
#33
#33
jarnol32 said:
Chavis was very average. Cutcliffe was very good.
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in 14 seasons, his defense only gave up an average of 20 points a game or more three times.

Tennessee has not had a season where they have given up less than 20 points a game on average since he left.

I would give a lot for that "very average" coach back
 
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#34
#34
LWSVOL said:
in 14 seasons, his defense only gave up an average of 20 points a game or more three times.

Tennessee has not had a season where they have given up less than 20 points a game on average since he left.

I would give a lot for that "very average" coach back
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There are a lot of "very average" coaches who would love to poach Chief from LSU.

I have a feeling Les Miles would be the hammer and the nail to keep him too.
 
#35
#35
Talent alone will win a lot of football games. It will eventually lose to equal talent that is better coached.

Player development is often overlooked as a coaching strength and is chalked up to pure talent.

The best programs typically have the best players. The top of that list is separated by the best coaches.
 
#36
#36
if you have talent in the right spots you can get by. For example, an average OL can look very good when blocking for an elite back
 
#37
#37
utvolpj said:
if you have talent in the right spots you can get by. For example, an average OL can look very good when blocking for an elite back
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Very true.

To add to that, good coaches maximize their strengths and disguise their weaknesses very well.
 
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#38
#38
BeecherVol said:
Talent alone will win a lot of football games. It will eventually lose to equal talent that is better coached.
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Or less talent that is well coached... witness Mizzou's run this year.

Player development is often overlooked as a coaching strength and is chalked up to pure talent.
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Absolutely true. Excellent point. The "choose 1" choice should have included that as a third option.

Player development which is part of coaching but distinct from game prep, playcalling, adjustments, etc may be MORE important than either of the other things.

That is why it is so important to see players improving from game to game, month to month, season to season.

The best programs typically have the best players. The top of that list is separated by the best coaches.
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The best programs have a high sum of the 3 elements. Teams that recruit great players but do not coach them up seldom continue to recruit as many great players. Great coaches who cannot recruit seldom have the talent to achieve greatness.
 
#39
#39
Under certain circumstances, it would have to be coaching. On the other hand, if you look at our recent recruiting classes that was under Dooley, they wasn't nearly as good as they used to be. You have to have elite talent to compete in the SEC. We have a lot of good players already but like Butch Jones said, we lack depth. We need to keep bringing in top 10 recruiting classes every year and the talent level will improve. Things will get better again but as of right now, we desperately are in need of better, faster players. We need more playmakers on both sides of the ball.
 
#40
#40
sjt18 said:
The best programs have a high sum of the 3 elements. Teams that recruit great players but do not coach them up seldom continue to recruit as many great players. Great coaches who cannot recruit seldom have the talent to achieve greatness.
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Yep.

And next years best HS talent is looking at a programs track record for developing high level talent and preparing it to be 1st round draft picks, to go along with winning championships while you do it.

Scouting HS talent has also become a fine art similar to drafting the right guy in the NFL.
 
#41
#41
sjt18 said:
Gary Pinkel and James Franklin say hello.


But to the point of the OP, if you want to be an elite program you cannot "pick 1". You must have both. This is even more important at UT than in a talent rich state like GA, FL, LA, etc.

Jones is recruiting elite talent right now. He and his staff did not prove this year that they are good enough coaches to win in the SEC. There's no treading water.... Either they start coaching better and rise and continue to get good recruits or they don't and lose the ability to make recruits believe in them. There is not and will not be any time soon enough talent in TN for UT to build championship teams with instate players alone. If they want elite national recruits... they have to be known as an elite staff.
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Why is it a bunch of people were always blaming the talent level here when Dooley 1st got here until last season...but now it is the staffs fault they are not miracle workers with that poor talent?
 
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#42
#42
You can't coach speed and pure athleticism. What coach could take credit for the catch North made against USC? Jimbo didn't look like a genius before Winston, and Chitzik certainly didn't look like one after Cam.

We are living in Les Miles times. Insert a 4-or-5star at every position, keep'em eligible and get them to the stadium on time...success will follow.
 
#43
#43
DERELICK_MY_VOLS said:
Why is it a bunch of people were always blaming the talent level here when Dooley 1st got here until last season...but now it is they are not miracle workers with that poor talent?
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Because Dooley didn't lose any games in his first season that he should not have lost... and he took a team under very similar circumstances to a bowl and lost it only on a fluke. And he had a near win vs an LSU team that was much better than UGA in '13... and his team at least showed up for a half vs Oregon and Bama.

Neither team had ideal rosters. They were similarly weak vs similarly difficult schedules. Neither guy worked any miracles... but one guy beat who he was supposed to beat and made a bowl. The other guy lost one he should not have lost and didn't.
 
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#45
#45
Coaching.....and % wise I'd say in college its 60/40 but in the NFL its 70/30. The worst teams get the top talent in the NFL so you better hire an excellent coach!
 
#46
#46
therealitytheory said:
You can't coach speed and pure athleticism. What coach could take credit for the catch North made against USC? Jimbo didn't look like a genius before Winston, and Chitzik certainly didn't look like one after Cam.
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Fisher didn't look good before Winston? He was 31-10 prior to this season after Bowden had been struggling. He has won 3 consecutive bowl games at FSU. The combined records of the teams he lost to is 93-41. FSU won 57.6% of the games they played in the 4 years prior to Fisher taking over. They've won 81.4% since he took over. Looks pretty good to me.

Chizik's hiring is still a mystery to me. He was horrible at ISU... and outside of having a freak for a year was pretty bad at Auburn too. He is the CLASSIC example based on this year's results of GREAT talent being held back by bad coaching.

We are living in Les Miles times. Insert a 4-or-5star at every position, keep'em eligible and get them to the stadium on time...success will follow.
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Except that we aren't. Miles has won 2 SEC championships in 9 years in spite of all that talent. For most of that time his only real competition was Saban... who also recruited well but can also coach well.

AND..... as has been mentioned many times, Tn simply does not produce the homegrown talent that La does. UGA, LSU, UF, etc can survive a mediocre or bad coach. Talent comes anyway. UT has to have a great coach to attract the talent that otherwise has no tether to UT.
 
#47
#47
Spartacavolus said:
Yet stj will argue with them as well.
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Nope. You can attempt all the strawmen you like but I have never said this was an ideal roster... only that it could have won 7 games if well coached and should have won 6.

Have at it. Point to one place where I said there weren't deficiencies on this roster.
 
#48
#48
Roughly 70% of the time, the team who has a better four year recruiting average wins any game. That jumps to about 90% in BCS title games.

So, for all of you who think it is coaching, more than talent, there is no way to support an argument that it is "mostly" coaching, when the majority of games are won by teams with more talent.

When you look at the remainder, you find some coaches who either under, or over-perform. On the positive side (meaning coaches who win more games than talent predicts over a series of years) you will get names like Petrino (his years at Arky), Franklin (Vandy), Spurrier, and....Butch Jones (has averaged 3.5 or so games a year more than talent predicts. On the down side of that "coach effect" are guys like Muschamp (has a total negative impact on talent of -10 games over his HC career), Dooley (roughly 3 games a year below talent), Kiff, Brown, Fedora...

For all of Auburn's noise this year, talent averages predicted their record exactly. That fact alone eliminates Malzahn from "coach of the year" in favor of guys like Cut and Pink (in my view).

I've covered this all here...
http://www.volnation.com/forum/tenn...recap-numbers-long-per-usual.html#post9605524
 
#49
#49
sjt18 said:
Nope. You can attempt all the strawmen you like but I have never said this was an ideal roster... only that it could have won 7 games if well coached and should have won 6.

Have at it. Point to one place where I said there weren't deficiencies on this roster.
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We should have beaten Candy, I will admit that one.

I'll also argue, though that we beat an SC team we should not have beaten.

Otherwise, we lost in games we were expected to lose and won games we were expected to win. In preseason I was expecting 6-7 wins but I was also not expecting Auburn and Mo to be good enough to be in the SECCG.

I'd say the jury is still out on these coaches. One thing that IS obvious is Butch is much better than Dooley. Question is how much better.....
 
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