Coaching vs Talent.

[sjt18]

And as I said earlier, I actually believe that UT might be the exception to the attrition rule, that if you look at the chart that I posted above (http://www.volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols-football/210829-coaching-vs-talent-2.html#post9623271), and compare it to the one below, that the two deep was not consistent with the talent left on the roster. In other words, if you specifically adjust for UT, the talent available on the field at specific groupings was far lower than it should be by just latent star ratings.

I'd be interested in seeing that for both years. We know that the '10 was "fed" by the 07 class which was largely a bust (plus Berry left early), the 08 class which was Fulmer's worst in his career, and the 09 class which was also a huge bust.

 

[beachbums624]

Good coaching needs good talent and good talent needs good coaching.

You can't turn water into wine.

Yes you can , it takes about 28 days .

Sorry could not resist . J/K .

 

[governmentmule]

Chavis was very average. Cutcliffe was very good.

wouldn't we all love to have that so called average defense back

 

[oregonvol]

Without a good-to-great QB, it doesn't matter who the HC is.

The passer ratings for SEC QBs reflect the success or failure of the respective teams:
Top nine: Mettenberger (LSU), Manziel (Ta&m), McCarron (UA), Shaw (SC), Murray (GA), Franklin (MZ), Marshall (AU), Carta-Samuels (VU), Wallace (UM)

Bottom five: Smith (UK), Murphy (FL), Prescott (MSST), Worley (UT), Allen (ARK)

Tennessee's combined QB rating of 110 was easily the worst in the league. That level of quarterbacking guarantees failure, regardless of who the head coach is.

So, you're saying that coaching can't improve a QB's performance? Or that we must sign better QBs? I'm not sure which one...

 

[GrowVol]

This time next year, we will know for certain. I'm still full Butch.... but at this point, the courtship is over. We have loads of talent coming in. So,next year not going to a bowl game will be all on Coaching. Schedule/talent excuse will fall on deaf ears for this sunshine pumper and will turn against a salesman quick.
Go Vols!

 

[alltimevol2331]

NFL scouts have said Tennessee was the slowest team they had seen in the SEC in over 10 years. Coaching was supposed to make up for that??

grossly under talented

I have said this all season and have made several comments on here about their speed. Most games, the UT defense looked slower than Alcoa defense. UT talent level is the worst it has been since the late 70's. Until UT can get speed, skill and lots of depth they will never be better than a 7-5 team.

 

[alltimevol2331]

This time next year, we will know for certain. I'm still full Butch.... but at this point, the courtship is over. We have loads of talent coming in. So,next year not going to a bowl game will be all on Coaching. Schedule/talent excuse will fall on deaf ears for this sunshine pumper and will turn against a salesman quick.
Go Vols!

So you are going to judge him on a 1st year freshman class?

 

[alltimevol2331]

The jury IS still out but how is that obvious?

Better than Dooley last year? Who isn't?

But the comparison is Dooley year 1 vs Jones year 1. Who did the better job of COACHING in year 1?

Butch...Dooley still had a full team of Fulmer recruits. Jones walked in with Dooley's.

 

[GrowVol]

So you are going to judge him on a 1st year freshman class?

With the talent already in place AND the talent coming in...If we can't at least go to a bowl game or even win 7 games, then I will be done with CBJ deal. Short of loads of injuries (fla type this season)....... there will be no excuse. I believe we are headed in the right direction NOW, but my sunshine will turn into black sky if I cant watch my team play in a bowl and a decent bowl next year.

 

[alltimevol2331]

With the talent already in place AND the talent coming in...If we can't at least go to a bowl game or even win 7 games, then I will be done with CBJ deal. Short of loads of injuries (fla type this season)....... there will be no excuse. I believe we are headed in the right direction NOW, but my sunshine will turn into black sky if I cant watch my team play in a bowl and a decent bowl next year.

What talent is in place? Granted they are some good players but I don't any that is going to take this team to a winning season.

 

[GrowVol]

What talent is in place? Granted they are some good players but I don't any that is going to take this team to a winning season.

We do have SOME...I Meant SOME talent. Are you saying we are bone dry in talent? Really?
BTW, you do realize why teams recruit talent don't you?

 

[alltimevol2331]

We do have SOME...I Meant SOME talent. Are you saying we are bone dry in talent? Really?
BTW, you do realize why teams recruit talent don't you?

Not bone dry but in the SEC they are a long ways off to most teams. Vols fans love to talk about recruiting and talent. While the last few years the class has been ranked high very little of that has developed into college SEC talent. This class is great and one of the best in many years it is time to see if Jones and Co can develop into competitive SEC talent.

 

[GrowVol]

Not bone dry but in the SEC they are a long ways off to most teams. Vols fans love to talk about recruiting and talent. While the last few years the class has been ranked high very little of that has developed into college SEC talent. This class is great and one of the best in many years it is time to see if Jones and Co can develop into competitive SEC talent.

Look at your post. Tennessee Volunteer Football recruiting over "the last few years" has not been ranked that high. Did I miss something?

 

[alltimevol2331]

Look at your post. Tennessee Volunteer Football recruiting over "the last few years" has not been ranked that high. Did I miss something?

I have been in discussion with other vol fans about how great our talent is now. I think someone posted that Dooley had the 9th, 13th and 17th. Those classes did not develop anywhere that close though.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

Not trying to fool anyone. I have been here for 8 years. For most of that 8 years, people have accused me of tilting too much to the positive side of things. They were right. So if it offends you that I say 5-7 and what we saw on the field was not a "good" coaching job... I'm very sorry. The truth isn't always what we'd like it to be.

Going forward... I just want to see better from the coaches. Again, if that offends you... if you cannot handle the implication that the coaches weren't great this year... I'm sorry.

SJT18, that philosophical perspective on your posting history is refreshing to hear. I was beginning to question whether you had experienced a "crisis of faith" over the course of this season. Based purely on the last six weeks or so, I would have had to characterize your position as falling squarely within the camp of "incessant criticism." It is good to see that my memory was not entirely deceiving me, for I did not remember you historically as being a Negavol.

Personally, I believe that this team actually exhibited two separate trajectories: improvement over the course of the season up through the South Carolina game and then regression after we pushed deeper into the late October/November gauntlet. We sustained significant injuries to three of our four scholarship quarterbacks, which made the already challenging process of establishing cohesion within our passing game even more problematic, due to extreme inexperience at both the signal-caller position and the wide receiver corps. The decline/regression was more pronounced on defense, where we had to play a number of starters far too many plays due to chronic injuries and suspensions, most notably to Maurice Couch, Curt Maggett, Riyadh Jones and Trevarris Saulsberry. Butch hinted at the possible negative repercussions of this situation before they began to fully manifest themselves in the Alabama, Missouri and Auburn games. Defense and special teams which were already suboptimal in terms of depth and team speed gave all they had but, quite simply, wore down almost to the breaking point over the course of the last month.

 

[VOODOOVOL]

And they never will. It also seems they don't understand who calls the plays on offense and defense. Football knowledge is largely lacking around here.

It's not that cut and dry.

Do you actually believe that Clawson called all of the plays when Fulmer was here?
Chaney with Kiffin?

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Average lhead coaching from Fulmer, yes. And the Chief, as much as I love him, seemed to get steadily worse as a DC as the level of talent on the D declined from 2001-08. And yet has become a great DC again now that he is with a program that is loaded with talent.

Fulmer was an average HC? :crazy:

 

[governmentmule]

Fulmer was an average HC? :crazy:

it is amazing that people still call him average or a bad coach, just look at his overall record first,it is pretty damn impressive and it speaks for its self

 

[sjt18]

Fulmer had 3 careers at UT. In the first one, he was hungry and innovative. In the 2nd one, he was complacent. In the third one, he let the game pass him by and was in denial about it.

 

[therealitytheory]

Fulmer had 3 careers at UT. In the first one, he was hungry and innovative. In the 2nd one, he was complacent. In the third one, he let the game pass him by and was in denial about it.

A fair assessment, but you left out Cutcliff. Our winning pct. with Cut was over .800; sans Cut were were .650.
Obviously our offensive efficiency and quarterbacking suffered when he was gone, but practices, workouts, and team discipline took a hit as well. Cut was more hands-on operationallly while Phil grew larger (npi) as Head of State.

 

[tm3]

The jury IS still out but how is that obvious?

Better than Dooley last year? Who isn't?

But the comparison is Dooley year 1 vs Jones year 1. Who did the better job of COACHING in year 1?

in the interest of completeness, the following also needs to be considered:

CDD had 3 weeks to recruit, landed a top 10 class. CBJ had two months, landed a top 30 class.

CDD year 1 had iirc 65 scholarship players out of potentially 85. CBJ had 82.

CDD was playing freshmen in the O line, which is virtually unheard of, while CBJ had seniors. also had to start a Fr at LB, reportedly the first time in the SEC that has ever happened.

CBJ might eventually rule the world (i hope so), but so far his on the field results at UT have not bested his predecessor.

as far as coaching and talent, this link is interesting, especially the comments regarding how having both (Saban) is a nearly unbeatable combo.

Apparent Talent, Team Quality and Coaching Effects - Football Study Hall

 

[utvolpj]

in the interest of completeness, the following also needs to be considered:

CDD had 3 weeks to recruit, landed a top 10 class. CBJ had two months, landed a top 30 class.

CDD year 1 had iirc 65 scholarship players out of potentially 85. CBJ had 82.

CDD was playing freshmen in the O line, which is virtually unheard of, while CBJ had seniors. also had to start a Fr at LB, reportedly the first time in the SEC that has ever happened.

CBJ might eventually rule the world (i hope so), but so far his on the field results at UT have not bested his predecessor.

as far as coaching and talent, this link is interesting, especially the comments regarding how having both (Saban) is a nearly unbeatable combo.

Apparent Talent, Team Quality and Coaching Effects - Football Study Hall

sorry but that analysis is terrible and simply ignores any outside factors involved.

first time a freshman has started at LB in the SEC? Seriously?

 

[sjt18]

A fair assessment, but you left out Cutcliff. Our winning pct. with Cut was over .800; sans Cut were were .650.
Obviously our offensive efficiency and quarterbacking suffered when he was gone, but practices, workouts, and team discipline took a hit as well. Cut was more hands-on operationallly while Phil grew larger (npi) as Head of State.

All true.

 

[LWSVOL]

It's not that cut and dry.

Do you actually believe that Clawson called all of the plays when Fulmer was here?
Chaney with Kiffin?

head coaches generally have an option to over turn any call a coordinator makes, either side of the ball. Its not like they change it on every play but to over turn from time to time.

 

[sjt18]

in the interest of completeness, the following also needs to be considered:

CDD had 3 weeks to recruit, landed a top 10 class. CBJ had two months, landed a top 30 class.

Got lean the other way on this one. Dooley was set up by Kiffin who in the 2nd year had UT in on some really good players. Jones was set up by Dooley who had effectively quit recruiting sometime around mid-season.

CDD year 1 had iirc 65 scholarship players out of potentially 85. CBJ had 82.

Pretty much true iirc. People want to deny it but the roster was in worse shape when Dooley took over than when Jones took over by a fairly significant margin.

CDD was playing freshmen in the O line, which is virtually unheard of, while CBJ had seniors. also had to start a Fr at LB, reportedly the first time in the SEC that has ever happened.

Dooley played more youth in his first two seasons than Jones did this year. Jones will likely play as many or more Fr next year.

CBJ might eventually rule the world (i hope so), but so far his on the field results at UT have not bested his predecessor.

Not by anything tangible or measurable. Of course what our "worthy" foes here should point out is that some developmental things have to get to a certain point before they start fitting together very well. The development of UT's QB's and WR's for instance... or UT's S's and CB's.

as far as coaching and talent, this link is interesting, especially the comments regarding how having both (Saban) is a nearly unbeatable combo.

No school is ever going to reach Bama's level without both elite coaching and recruiting but UT even more so. As I tried apparently in vain to explain, if you depend as heavily on out of state talent to make your program great as UT does... you simply cannot afford and "average" coach even if he's a "great" recruiter. Over time even a great recruiter won't be able to pull the talent needed to win.