Court Orders Dissolution of Trump Org

#201
#201
Septic said:
Lol. You seem to have the palm beach private club valuation market all figured out. By the way, did Mar a Lago gross 37m or net $37m? You just went from comparing residential condo units to historic commercial properties. Bravo.

Between you and Hogg, y'all could have saved Donny a fortune in legal fees.
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It's amazing how the most amazing legal minds on the planet sitting untapped right here on VN.
 
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#202
#202
Vol8188 said:
Trump wasn’t hired to determine the value of his assets. Rather he was asked to listed what he believed the assets to be worth.

Surely you see the difference in that, right?
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I think it was a little more than that. Back when the CFO went down I'm pretty sure their was talk of inflating values by doing things like treating rent controlled buildings as non rent controlled, etc. Basically misclassifying properties as things they weren't. I have read the facts of this case, but I assume that's all part of it.
 
#203
#203
Found a link to this on AP. Lot of legalese I'm sure not going to read all the way through, but there are some breakdowns of the facts buried in here and even some statements about why "well the bank doesn't care" probably isn't a legitimate legal defense under the statute. So far I have found no mention of whether the financial statements were used for the purpose of valuing the organization as a whole or specific collateralized assets @hog88.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org www.documentcloud.org
 
#206
#206
Septic said:
You can't use a personal home to value a business property and vice versa.

The only proper methodology for appraising the market value of a CLUB like Mar a Lago is to measure it against other clubs in the vicinity that are of like kind and quality.

The club is deeded and zoned as a commercial property, using the potential value of a commercial property being parted out as home lots is not only impossible - its comically stupid.
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Hmmmm. A lot of people have done the impossible and comically stupid. There are two neighborhoods here in Cleveland that were former golf clubs. No, not the same as Mar-a-Lago, but you also may have missed on that the only proper methodology is comparing to others etc, etc. IF you are including earning/cash flow from the properties in the "like kind and quality" then you have a better argument, but if not including those metrics, then not even in the ball park for valuation. Also, location, location, location.

Not making an argument that one side or the other is wrong or right about the valuation being correct. However, anytime someone goes to talking in absolutes as done in your post, well...there is a probability you're wrong. Just curious, have you ever traded property/businesses? Because, and I really mean no disrespect here, your statements do not indicate it. I'd say most of us who have, recognized the flaws in your post pretty quick.
 
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#207
#207
GroverCleveland said:
However, anytime someone goes to talking in absolutes as done in your post, well...there is a probability you're wrong.
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You and Septic can do you and Septic, but this reflects my opinion of some of the legal scholars on this thread who keep speaking in absolutes while being unable to give me a legal or factual basis for their claims other than their opinion.
 
#210
#210
clarksvol00 said:
Amazes me that you think you have an informed opinion on anything, let alone this.
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Amazes me Hunters painting sold for half a mil. Can you say money laundering? But hey, a liberal judge in NY knows the value of Trumps holdings. No jury btw. What’s next? Trumps love child comes forward?
 
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#211
#211
AirVol said:
Amazes me Hunters painting sold for half a mil. Can you say money laundering? But hey, a liberal judge in NY knows the value of Trumps holdings. What’s next? Trumps love child comes forward?
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"Whatabout Hunter?" definitely doesn't change my mind about you.
 
#212
#212
clarksvol00 said:
You and Septic can do you and Septic, but this reflects my opinion of some of the legal scholars on this thread who keep speaking in absolutes while being unable to give me a legal or factual basis for their claims other than their opinion.
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Yeah, to be fair, Septic may have been expressing his opinion only. There is a lot of that.

My opinion is this judge's ruling will not withstand appeal, even in New York. The dissolution of going concerns over what seems to be boiled down to perceptions of certain activities is setting a dangerous precedent to me. Have no specific points of law to quote or reference, just based on MY experience in business, reading on decisions in various cases and limited exposures in court (luck or skill, I cannot judge but am thankful!). That opinion is worth what everyone paid for it
 
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#213
#213
GroverCleveland said:
Yeah, to be fair, Septic may have been expressing his opinion only. There is a lot of that.

My opinion is this judge's ruling will not withstand appeal, even in New York. The dissolution of going concerns over what seems to be boiled down to perceptions of certain activities is setting a dangerous precedent to me. Have no specific points of law to quote or reference, just based on MY experience in business, reading on decisions in various cases and limited exposures in court (luck or skill, I cannot judge but am thankful!). That opinion is worth what everyone paid for it
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Same here on the bold, but I'm not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of this law and come onto VN throwing out "this isn't correct because the bank didn't say anything." I posted the judge's opinion a few posts back, I'd be curious as to who reads and tells us where he's wrong.
 
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#214
#214
volinbham said:
If I remember correctly the defrauded banks/insurers didn't make any allegations - it was the AG. Not sure if it matters legally but it does raise some questions if the "victims" didn't consider themselves victims.

Not an answer to overturning.

The immediate dissolving of business interests seems it may face some challenges
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Well, if the AG is declaring fraud, who has standing to bring the case? Who has been defrauded? Who is agrieved?
 
#215
#215
Gandalf said:
Well, if the AG is declaring fraud, who has standing to bring the case? Who has been defrauded? Who is agrieved?
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According to the judge, the AG has standing pursuant to the statute conferring authority on the AG to file it. It's in the judge's opinion i posted.

Edit: I feel like anybody with half a brain could figure out a bunch of the stuff that's being argued over on here, if they just took 5 minutes to look for themselves instead of engaging in a bunch of uninformed speculation.
 
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#216
#216
@whodeycin85

Regarding the fairness of motions for summary judgement... Trump also filed a motion for summary judgement on several issues meaning either these are normal (they are accordimg to the interwebs) or he tried to keep the state from having a fair trial. (FYI he lost his motions).

Edit: after my interweb research I'm also fairly certain that summary judgment motions happen regularly in civil lawsuits, and if they were as awful as you say they are, there would be some due process issues raised in the past hundred years or so.
 
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#217
#217
clarksvol00 said:
According to the judge, the AG has standing pursuant to the statute conferring authority on the AG to file it. It's in the judge's opinion i posted.

Edit: I feel like anybody with half a brain could figure out a bunch of the stuff that's being argued over on here, if they just took 5 minutes to look for themselves instead of engaging in a bunch of uninformed speculation.
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That explains it. The Biden cartel followers have a half a brain.
 
#219
#219

Marjorie Taylor Greene Blasts 'Communists' for Trump's Mar-a-Lago Problem​

As questions continue to arise about the value of former President Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago Florida residence, Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene calls out "communists" for causing the problem.

In a ruling concerning a fraud case against the former president, his sons and the Trump Organization on Tuesday, Judge Arthur Engoron found that they had overvalued several of Trump's properties by more than $400 million, including the Mar-a-Lago residence. The ruling has since sparked outrage from the Trump family and other Republicans in support of Trump.

In a post shared to X, formerly Twitter, Greene shared her disapproval towards the ruling by claiming the judge is trying to destroy Trump as "communists are taking over."

Copy And Paste:
www.newsweek.com

Marjorie Taylor Greene blasts 'Communists' for Trump's Mar-a-Lago problem

Following the ruling that stated Trump overvalued properties by more than $400 million, Greene speaks out in support of Trump calling out "communists"
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
 
#220
#220
Franklin Pierce said:

Marjorie Taylor Greene Blasts 'Communists' for Trump's Mar-a-Lago Problem​

As questions continue to arise about the value of former President Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago Florida residence, Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene calls out "communists" for causing the problem.

In a ruling concerning a fraud case against the former president, his sons and the Trump Organization on Tuesday, Judge Arthur Engoron found that they had overvalued several of Trump's properties by more than $400 million, including the Mar-a-Lago residence. The ruling has since sparked outrage from the Trump family and other Republicans in support of Trump.

In a post shared to X, formerly Twitter, Greene shared her disapproval towards the ruling by claiming the judge is trying to destroy Trump as "communists are taking over."

Copy And Paste:
www.newsweek.com

Marjorie Taylor Greene blasts 'Communists' for Trump's Mar-a-Lago problem

Following the ruling that stated Trump overvalued properties by more than $400 million, Greene speaks out in support of Trump calling out "communists"
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
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If there is anybody who has bothered to be less informed about some of the issues in this thread than VN posters, it's definitely MTG.
 
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#221
#221
LouderVol said:
I don't think its as apples to apples as you are making it out to be. Its not apples to tanks, but there are some pretty clear distinctions.

1. Is Trump or his various businesses held to this standard?
"eAppraiseIT publicly advertises that its appraisals conform with the Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice (USPAP) and that they are "audited for compliance." "
This would be key to saying its a similar enough case. If Trump's businesses don't operate under that standard, they can't be held liable for it. just because its an adjacent industry doesn't mean they can be held to even similar standards. I am an architect, I am not held to the same standards as a real estate agent, contractor, engineer, or anyone else, you haven't established why Trump should be held to this standard.

2. Does he or his business actively advertise their services under this standard or as an appraiser? that would be fraud, if he was advertising as an appraiser working to that standard, and wasn't upholding it. I don't think there is a similar standard for Trump's businesses as noted above. or if he claimed the numbers on the financial disclosure were appraisals when they weren't.

3. the value of a property is quiet often not the same as what it is appraised for, Mar-a-lago being appraised at $18 million being a great piece to reference here. I can't find the actual Law being broken here to read the language but I would like to see what is required on these financial disclosures. The language would be telling, is an appraisal required/does the listed value have to be from an appraisal? the General Business Law 349 doesn't get into any type of specifics towards what documentation is required. NYS Open Legislation | NYSenate.gov if it was, then yeah Trump is guilty under the law, if that isn't required I am not sure why its brought up. it makes sense for the eAppraiseIT/First American case, but maybe not for Trump.

4. Trumps case doesn't hinge around a third party illegally influencing another, or at least I haven't seen that case made. Trumps case was purely between two parties. eAppraiseIT was dealing with a third party, and then all the individual buyers/sellers.

5. eAppraiseIT case also hinges on the involved parties actively knowing they were violating their standards, and kept doing it. I have yet to see that established with Trump. again it could be happening, but I haven't seen it from the judge's ruling.
so yeah, I don't see how its similar at all except its charged under the same base law. which is INCREDIBLY broad. the eAppraiseIT/First American case is wholly centered around appraisals and the standards there of. I would need to see a New York law that says a financial disclosure is equal to or held to the same/similar standard, or that Trump's businesses are held to some equal level of standard.
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The law he was sued under penalizes fraud, illegal acts, and persistent fraud. He was sued under a theory of persistent fraud. Fraud is an intentional misrepresentation. That dispenses with number 5, the only one that really deserves a serious rebuttal.

3… What are you even talking about?

4, 1, and 2 are just distinctions without a difference. “Case doesn’t involve a third party?” Advertising? You’ve got to be *****ing me…

Your complaint is apparently that they’re not perfectly identical, not that they’re not similar.

They are similar.

The state of New York has an interest in preserving the stability of corporate banks. New York consumers stand to be harmed by bank failures and improper speculative lending or poor risk management is a known cause of bank failures.

New York has used Executive Law 63(12) to punish attempts to illegally escape regulations that limit under-secured lending. They’re now using it to punish persistent intentional misrepresentations of banks’ exposure to risk. In both cases, the risk portfolio was skewed by knowingly reporting an inflated value on properties.

Those are the similarities and they’re closely related to what people thought was relevant before you all found out that the First American case had taken place and suddenly wanted to talk about advertising and third parties.
 
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#222
#222
AirVol said:
Amazes me a judge moonlights as a real estate appraiser.
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The judge just relied on the numerous independent appraisals that Trump had commissioned for each property. The same appraisals that Trump completely ignored and increased by 300-500% when he filled out his Statement of Financial Condition. You could have read the case and found that out on your own...

Not absolving banks for their due diligence here but materially and knowingly lying on these forms is a crime.
 
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