Current status of obamacare.

#51
#51
Not all insurers are publicly traded, and not at all levels. Some mutuals, for example, are not traded.

However, to the extent that they are, you are right that the shareholders probably aren't doing enough to combat this problem.

But that does not in any way contradict my point that "profit margin" in the context of many corporate entitites doesn't mean what a lot of people think it means.



BOTTOM LINE: The current system of insuring for health care costs is doomed. It is unsustainable. It is wrecking the economy in a much more steady drumbeat fashion than all the stimulus programs put together.

It simply cannot last doing what it does now and someone is going to have to have the political will to either cut back on health care services for everyone or figure out a way to pay for it.

Absolutely, the only problem I have with this statement coming from you as an Obama supporter is that Obama's plan would have accomplished neither of these objectives. Government, particularly our government, is incapable of running any endeavor efficiently and effectively. Their track record proves as much, why should we keep entrusting them when they have proven time and again they're unworthy?
 
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#52
#52
Absolutely, the only problem I have with this statement coming from you as an Obama supporter is that Obama's plan would have accomplished neither of these objectives. Government, particularly our government, is incapable of running any endeavor efficiently and effectively. Their track record proves as much, why should we keep entrusting them when they have proven time and again their unworthy?

(you mean 'they're' unworthy?) :p

Obama has just suggested that obamacare will cost $1,000,000,000,000 over a ten year period.

That is probably around $100 a month for all Americans who earn their own living and who is to say that it wouldn't cost far more in reality???

Obamacare involves creating or greatly enhancing 35 or 36 federal agencies, simply amazing how much socialists seem to love red tape.
 
#53
#53
I find this very interesting (from the CNN article)....

"Total out-of-pocket expenses would be limited, and insurance companies would be prevented from denying coverage for pre-existing conditions. Insurers would be barred from charging higher premiums based on a person's gender or medical history."
 
#54
#54
Not all insurers are publicly traded, and not at all levels. Some mutuals, for example, are not traded.

However, to the extent that they are, you are right that the shareholders probably aren't doing enough to combat this problem.

But that does not in any way contradict my point that "profit margin" in the context of many corporate entitites doesn't mean what a lot of people think it means.



BOTTOM LINE: The current system of insuring for health care costs is doomed. It is unsustainable. It is wrecking the economy in a much more steady drumbeat fashion than all the stimulus programs put together.

It simply cannot last doing what it does now and someone is going to have to have the political will to either cut back on health care services for everyone or figure out a way to pay for it.

Yeah, minimizing returns by paying too much is salaries and bonuses is a great way to raise institutional funds.

Wonder who the biggest holders of the public medical insurers are? Probably guys that like like low earnings, right?
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#55
#55
so basically anyone healthy with money will be subsidizing the rest of the country. seems fair.
 
#56
#56
I find this very interesting (from the CNN article)....

Sounds wonderful. I'm sure care will be improved too and costs will go down and it will rain gumdrops and reese's pieces.

Why oh why won't Americans support this? Simple, they are racists :)
 
#57
#57
Sounds wonderful. I'm sure care will be improved too and costs will go down and it will rain gumdrops and reese's pieces.

Why oh why won't Americans support this? Simple, they are racists :)

They may become gender blind and ignore medical history, but how much do you want to bet your job title and zip code come into play when assessing rates?
 
#59
#59
They may become gender blind and ignore medical history, but how much do you want to bet your job title and zip code come into play when assessing rates?

Something has to. I mean why not pass a bill that says credit card companies have to give credit to everyone and can never raise rates or charge any fees. How on earth do they think insurance works?

Even if it were single payer something has to give to make insuring 300+ million feasible.
 
#62
#62
Something has to. I mean why not pass a bill that says credit card companies have to give credit to everyone and can never raise rates or charge any fees. How on earth do they think insurance works?

Even if it were single payer something has to give to make insuring 300+ million feasible.

The only way you can begin to make sense of it is if you view it as a transition away from health care insurance (where risk factors must be taken into account) and a move toward health care coverage. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say what the consequences of such a transition would be with any certainty, but it seems to be the idea.
 
#64
#64
The only way you can begin to make sense of it is if you view it as a transition away from health care insurance (where risk factors must be taken into account) and a move toward health care coverage. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say what the consequences of such a transition would be with any certainty, but it seems to be the idea.

There will still be a free-rider problem where the healthy subsidize the sick.

My preference would be for insurance to go back to being insurance and allow insurers to offer a myriad of policies to fit the individual's preferences and income. You would still need Medicaid or some subsidy to help the very poor gain coverage.

With this system you could add portability, inability to deny coverage for those with coverage already, etc. and stop some of the abuses from the industry.

The states would need to lower the mandated coverage to consistent minimums but it would introduce awareness of costs back to patients and allow them to make more reasoned choices on treatments/options.
 
#65
#65
I find this very interesting (from the CNN article)....

"Total out-of-pocket expenses would be limited, and insurance companies would be prevented from denying coverage for pre-existing conditions. Insurers would be barred from charging higher premiums based on a person's gender or medical history."

I'm with you. Not only would the amount insurance companies would be able to charge consumers in co-payments would be limited under the new law, but price differentiations based upon risk would also be limited. Added with an individual mandate, these outcomes are a recipe for drastically increased insurance costs.

Insurance companies primary business is collecting more premiums than they pay out. To do this, they calcualte the amount they expect to pay out for an average consumer in a particular risk group. They then price premiums at an amount where the insurance company expects to be greater than the amount they anticpate paying out (they are generally pretty accurate at these calculations). Because these regulations would not allow the insurance company to differentiate as it would normally based upon risk, the premiums may decrease for high risk individuals but will rise for low risk individuals. To illustrate, suppose you have only two consumers A and B. A is a person of average risk. The insurance company expects A to incur 100K in expenses over a lifetime. Based on this figure, the insurance company estimates that it must charge $20 per month to A to remain profitable. On the other hand, you have B, a person with a history of extreme expenses - some his fault, some just bad luck. The insurance company may find that this person is simply too risky to insure because they cannot anticipate future expenses. For arguments sake, however, suppose that based on actuarial values the average expenses over a lifetime for someone like B would be 1 million dollars. Based on this determination, the insurance company needs to charge an $880 per month premium to attain the desired profit. Now suppose we have an individual mandate with the added restriction that costs cannot fluctuate between high and low risk groups by more than a factor of 4. Despite these regulations, the insurance company must collect $900 per month to stay profitable while insuring A and B. Therefore, the insurance company must increase the premiums it charges A to at least $180 so it can charge B $720 (180x4) to collect the total amount needed of $900. As you can see, B is now insured where the otherwise would not have been, but A has - in effect - shouldered the burden.

Another function of the regulations that may seem ideal on its face, but that would create negative long-term consequences is the limitation on the amount of out of pocket costs the consumer can pay. Sure, who wouldn't want to pay less out of pocket. What could be better? Unfortuantely, a lot. Low cost sharing encourages consumers to over-consume a good (because they do not feel they are paying anything for it). Suppose you purchased insurance that covered all expenses you incur in your automobile (catastropic coverage and regular maintenance). If you pay nothing out of pocket, there is very little stopping you from getting your 60K service every 20K miles. This is why they say insurance creates a moral hazard - if you do not foot the bill, you have less incentive to keep from running up the bill. The problem of moral hazard may not increase the cost you pay at the point of sale, but it does increase two costs. First, it may increase the costs the mechanic charges because he knows you won't care and the insurance cannot renegotiate the contract after the fact. Second, and more importantly, this increases the costs on the company insuring you - forcing them to need more income in the form of premiums to compensate. As a result, rates will increase.

I just don't see how anyone thinks this is feasible. Or at least, can argue it is desirable with a straight face.
 
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#70
#71
#71
Really.......... Mario Cuomo and Obama...............

I hate it when I have that vomit taste in my mouth.........
 
#72
#72
Ronnie was full of great quotes. I like these though.

"Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do." -- Ronald Reagan, 1981

"The best minds are not in government." -- Ronald Reagan. He proved that without a doubt.

What on earth is wrong with the last one?
 
#75
#75
Uh, because we've got the best and the brightest in the WH right now. See White House Plans on Putting Price Controls on Health Insurance

I mean, any economist will tell you that price controls are the fastest way to an efficient market. :eek:lol:

BO is on the cover of BusinessWeek - the story is an interview with him where he says he is a fierce defender of the free market and you can't find a policy of his that isn't business friendly :eek:hmy:
 

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