Derrick Henry...New Car.....Bama shenanigans?

If this is your argument, then the solution is simple... change the name from "collegiate" sports to "semi-pro" sports and don't even offer scholarships or an education. You should know as well as anyone that the scenario you're describing above will lead to whichever university (or booster) is willing to pay the most will get the best athletes. And at that point, just watch how attendance will drop. I thoroughly enjoy watching amateur sports... athletes, at least whom somewhat, want to play the game because they love the game. I care much less about watching a bunch of millionaires go at it on Sunday afternoons.

I have always said they are trying to protect their revenue stream, you are of course correct in saying it will effect their revenue stream.

Which is why they are engaged in immoral, unethical and illegal business practices to protect that revenue stream.

I mean, its kind of admitting to their behavior.
 
It has nothing to do with separation of church and State, my Rights do not come from the State or a church. The Supreme Court has says it differently... the Rights existed before they were even created.

Which is why I laugh at the 2nd amendment people, for your Rights to bear arms existed before there was a Constitution, a United States, and a one Supreme Court. Which is exactly what the Supreme Court says over and over, but nobody listens.

Either way, pretty irrelevant to the discussion, nor is this a separates of church and State issue.

I mean it's pretty simple, if they (schools) think they are correct, they should impose the same thing on coaches, staff, professors, etc.

Good luck with that.
Any right to employment is clearly subject to state control vis a vis licensure requirements, taxation, and health and safety regulations. Similarly, the state controls gifts through the gift tax, undue influence prohibitions, and limitations on ownership of goods (for example a felon cannot be gifted a firearm).

The only purpose of the NCAA rules is to create a level playing field for competition. Don't know about Louisiana but in tennessee much of the NCAA gift rules have been incorporated into criminal laws concerning athlete agency.
 
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Any right to employment is clearly subject to state control vis a vis licensure requirements, taxation, and health and safety regulations. Similarly, the state controls gifts through the gift tax, undue influence prohibitions, and limitations on ownership of goods (for example a felon cannot be gifted a firearm).

Without addressing each one of the above, I usually say "in general", of course I do not agree to the context of everything you wrote either.

The only purpose of the NCAA rules is to create a level playing field for competition.
If that were true, then all sports would be regulated, but really immaterial. The mob has rules to level the playing field of the families, so?

An establishment of the cartel is to restrict the free market and to control players. This establishment of rules that have nothing to do with what happens inside the four corners of the playing field which makes it not a level playing field as you wrote... for the players.

Again, this is pretty simple, impose the same restrictions on the coaches and see what happens. You can justify anything with words, that does not make it moral, ethical and legal.

Don't know about Louisiana but in tennessee much of the NCAA gift rules have been incorporated into criminal laws concerning athlete agency.

Are you talking about sports agents? I know "sport agents" are being regulated in some States but no license is necessary to receive compensation (in general) or gifts. If any such statute does exist, then it should be challenged. There are all types of unconstitutional statutes, many of them go decades or more without be challenged or contested. If you are operating as a "sport's agent" then you might be under the thumb of the State, without additional information and context of facts, not sure anyone can make that determination. As far as gifts, there is nothing the State of Tennessee can do to me to sending gifts.. .matter of fact, I just sent multiple gifts to people in Tennessee.

I can send Henry $1,000,000 tomorrow and there is nothing the State of Alabama can do to me. Why? It's none of their business.
 
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Without addressing each one of the above, I usually say "in general", of course I do not agree to the context of everything you wrote either.


If that were true, then all sports would be regulated, but really immaterial. The mob has rules to level the playing field of the families, so?

An establishment of the cartel is to restrict the free market and to control players. This establishment of rules that have nothing to do with what happens inside the four corners of the playing field which makes it not a level playing field as you wrote... for the players.

Again, this is pretty simple, impose the same restrictions on the coaches and see what happens. You can justify anything with words, that does not make it moral, ethical and legal.



Are you talking about sports agents? I know "sport agents" are being regulated in some States but no license is necessary to receive compensation (in general) or gifts. If any such statute does exist, then it should be challenged. There are all types of unconstitutional statutes, many of them go decades or more without be challenged or contested. If you are operating as a "sport's agent" then you might be under the thumb of the State, without additional information and context of facts, not sure anyone can make that determination. As far as gifts, there is nothing the State of Tennessee can do to me to sending gifts.. .matter of fact, I just sent multiple gifts to people in Tennessee.

I can send Henry $1,000,000 tomorrow and there is nothing the State of Alabama can do to me. Why? It's none of their business.

Actually, you will have tortiously (perhaps criminally depending on their laws) interfered with their contract with Henry jeopardizing his eligibility and their use of him.
 
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Actually, you will have tortiously (perhaps criminally depending on their laws) interfered with their contract with Henry jeopardizing his eligibility and their use of him.

He does not have a contract to perform nor can Alabama be damaged, nor I am I interfering with his non-enforceable contract to begin with. As he is not even an employee or even a legitimate contractor for services.

Good luck with that nonsense. I might send him some money just for the heck with it.

They can remove his eligibility any time they want for whatever reason they want, not my problem.
 
A football scholarship is a year to year contract.

So?

If you are claiming it's an employment contract than its not enforceable and many parts are void on its face, and that would be the school admitting the player is an employee, which in turn is admitting they are not complying with State and Federal law as they are not. Which is really how the NCAA threw the schools under the bus.

There is no real duty to perform, as a player never even has to show up, let alone go to class, let alone play in a game, etc. The player can quit at any time.

The school is agreeing to pay for this and that, that is basically it.

I seriously doubt you will find an employment contract that is enforceable about receiving 3rd party payments, let alone a scholarship. Good luck with all that.

You are throwing out stuff that appears to be random and randomly makes no sense, that is not going to change what is going to happen.

There is nothing stopping me or regulating me as to giving gifts, or even hiring any of these players, in general.

So, a school that does not pay or compensate for services wants to sue me for breaking a non-service agreement because I interfered in terms of a third party contract that has no provisions for what they claim I helped breach. And can show no damages as they are not paying nor compensating for the unknown service. Wow!

I thought these were amateur sports! :lolabove::lolabove::lolabove:

Now I am really confused, and I thought this was a volunteer school activity. Foolish me.:dance2:
 
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Sure sounds like folks in Louisiana and Alabama see it as a sacred duty to pay for play. I think we have now come full circle.
 
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First post so take it easy if the posting doesn't go correctly. However any views/opinions I express are open game.

That being said how is going to college make you an employee. Even on scholarship I had to pay to go to college. Name me one business (as college athletics is accused of being) where the employees have to the company/corporation/whatever. I see the scholarships I received as an incentive to go to UT, that's actually the reason I ended up at UT, because other schools wouldn't give me a discount on the services they offer. I see the scholarship as a 'sale' if you will, if I participate in a sale at Walmart/wherever does that make me an employee....I am making Walmart money, doesn't make me an employee. I am a customer, just like I was a customer of the University, which is exactly what STUDENT-athletes are. Walk-ons (student athletes) pay to go to school yet most of them help the school make money based on their performances, the walk-ons PAY to go to school. Whats the difference between a walk-on on a scholarship player? The scholarship player gets the 'discount' of 100% to shop there. Its not the university's fault that the student athletes don't take meaningful courses and or succeed in their chosen field of athletics. Any student is paying for an opportunity for a better life, some just pay less because they get the discount of a scholarship, and that is what the student athletes are getting for free. An opportunity.

If what several posters are saying is what they believe they would be attacking the whole system of scholarships, that any student on scholarship is an employee; because of what I am calling a 'discount'.

I graduated from the school of Architecture, if you are familiar with UT/ went to school there you know no group of people put in worse hours than we do. And yet many of us had jobs on top of the ridiculous hours we put in. Again many of us were on scholarship, put in literally insane hours, I have been told in need counselling because of what I did to stay on scholarship. And we made the university money. We take part in many activities that the school and university was able to advertise. I have been in several commercials, my work has been in several commercials. Those commercials and work lead to the school getting several million dollars. Does not make me, or anyone else that worked on the project a de-facto employee.

I guess to sum up my point, I don't think the student athletes should be paid, given true full rides and stipends sure. And unless you have a problem with scholarships in general, based on any circumstance/requirements, you need to keep quiet about the student athletes being considered employees. (Notice the lack of legalese so I am sure somebody will inform me of how un-informed I am)
 
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First post so take it easy if the posting doesn't go correctly. However any views/opinions I express are open game.

That being said how is going to college make you an employee. Even on scholarship I had to pay to go to college. Name me one business (as college athletics is accused of being) where the employees have to the company/corporation/whatever. I see the scholarships I received as an incentive to go to UT, that's actually the reason I ended up at UT, because other schools wouldn't give me a discount on the services they offer. I see the scholarship as a 'sale' if you will, if I participate in a sale at Walmart/wherever does that make me an employee....I am making Walmart money, doesn't make me an employee. I am a customer, just like I was a customer of the University, which is exactly what STUDENT-athletes are. Walk-ons (student athletes) pay to go to school yet most of them help the school make money based on their performances, the walk-ons PAY to go to school. Whats the difference between a walk-on on a scholarship player? The scholarship player gets the 'discount' of 100% to shop there. Its not the university's fault that the student athletes don't take meaningful courses and or succeed in their chosen field of athletics. Any student is paying for an opportunity for a better life, some just pay less because they get the discount of a scholarship, and that is what the student athletes are getting for free. An opportunity.

If what several posters are saying is what they believe they would be attacking the whole system of scholarships, that any student on scholarship is an employee; because of what I am calling a 'discount'.

I graduated from the school of Architecture, if you are familiar with UT/ went to school there you know no group of people put in worse hours than we do. And yet many of us had jobs on top of the ridiculous hours we put in. Again many of us were on scholarship, put in literally insane hours, I have been told in need counselling because of what I did to stay on scholarship. And we made the university money. We take part in many activities that the school and university was able to advertise. I have been in several commercials, my work has been in several commercials. Those commercials and work lead to the school getting several million dollars. Does not make me, or anyone else that worked on the project a de-facto employee.

I guess to sum up my point, I don't think the student athletes should be paid, given true full rides and stipends sure. And unless you have a problem with scholarships in general, based on any circumstance/requirements, you need to keep quiet about the student athletes being considered employees. (Notice the lack of legalese so I am sure somebody will inform me of how un-informed I am)

I hope you post a lot more based on your well written first post. I agree with everything you said and you seem to hold the same values I strongly believe in. Welcome to THE Volnation.
 
Nice post loudervol. I think there's some folks posting in this thread who realize that they support a program where the rules are being brazenly ignored but they're winning so everything must be okay. I come at this as someone who gets paid very well to draft and review legal documents and who has a professional familiarity with the athlete agent law in Tennessee. In essense our law states that a person who is giving a benefit to influence an athlete to play for a particular college must register as an athlete agent or they commit a crime. Any registered athlete agent is prohibited from giving gifts to college players or a crime is committed. I know for a fact that there are people who welcome the chance to prosecute a violation. Maybe AL and LA are different and all they have to worry about is the NCAA.
 
:hi:

Hopefully I made it clear that I am no expert and was really hoping someone would explain why a scholarship equals employment. I have read a lot on the subject and still have yet to find a satisfactory explanation for this. Until I understand how that equates I will vehemently be against it because I don't see/understand where the other sides argument is coming from.

Anyway thanks for the welcome, I will definitely be posting more, hopefully not the monologue I did as my first. (also hope the smilies works)
 
If what several posters are saying is what they believe they would be attacking the whole system of scholarships, that any student on scholarship is an employee; because of what I am calling a 'discount'.

Each State, case, player, program, school, and situation is different, which is why you have agencies, judicial review and bodies to make determinations. What people incorrectly try to do is say one size fits all and that is not how it works.

I disagree with the notion that a scholarship, in itself is "compensation", I think it would depend on the what I said above. The problem is, people are looking for a collective, which is what the schools have done by signing what I believe to be RICO type agreements. Of course, the NCAA has made statements that the schools are "compensating" the player.... threw the schools right under the bus.

The schools created the problem, the schools can easily correct the problem, however, why would someone want to acknowledge a problem when doing so will severely impact their revenue stream? The mob does not work that way.

I don't see this as an attack on scholarships at all, its an attack on how these schools operate. Try this nonsense in any other industry or even on the coaches and see what happens.
 
Lmao at how many posts bamawriter has in this thread!

Lot of effort to rationalize bammer cheatin. Good insight into the bammer psyche, despite cheating being universally accepted as morally reprehensible and unethical, it's ok when it involves alabubba football.

Then comes his moral relativism fail... analogous to "since some cars on the road have broken tail lights (other schools), bama is no worse for driving 100 in a school zone. See everyone is breaking the law."
 
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Each State, case, player, program, school, and situation is different, which is why you have agencies, judicial review and bodies to make determinations. What people incorrectly try to do is say one size fits all and that is not how it works.

I disagree with the notion that a scholarship, in itself is "compensation", I think it would depend on the what I said above. The problem is, people are looking for a collective, which is what the schools have done by signing what I believe to be RICO type agreements. Of course, the NCAA has made statements that the schools are "compensating" the player.... threw the schools right under the bus.

The schools created the problem, the schools can easily correct the problem, however, why would someone want to acknowledge a problem when doing so will severely impact their revenue stream? The mob does not work that way.

I don't see this as an attack on scholarships at all, its an attack on how these schools operate. Try this nonsense in any other industry or even on the coaches and see what happens.

It sounds to me LSU-SIU, so jmo, that you don't have a problem with any of it at all, you just see a weakness that is exploitable and that has opened up the NCAA as a whole, both entity and individuals to lawsuits. Again I don't see the problem of the NCAA 'setting' the value of the scholarship, it should be full cost, but for each institution that varies. As much as I love TN, a scholarship there is worth $23,000 a year, give or take. Northwestern is $69,000 or there abouts. I don't how they are 'setting prices/colluding' when the value changes per school. Now if said student athlete takes that $69,000 and only gets a $23,000, or less, education out of it that is on the student, not the school or NCAA.

As far as these schools 'making' millions of dollars they aren't lining the administration's pockets with that money, I am not naive so yes some is padding someones pay check not involved in the AD. They take that money and invest it in other student athletes who otherwise wouldn't have the chance to have that hyphen student label, such as tennis, soccer or other sports. It works the same way in the real world, so don't give me that 'try this in any other business' bs. Anybody that is a part of a professional organization, I am working towards becoming an Architect so for me its the AIA, each business agency sets a minimum a person employeed in that field has to be paid. Now it varies on any number of reasons, including where you are working, I am making under 40k in ATL, but someone with the same experience in California is likely making 50k+, why because of cost of living. That is exactly what the scholarship is, so IF college athletics is a business it isn't colluding any more than any one else. Like i said i make less than 40k a year, a more than $16 an hour, yet my firm bills my time to the client for $60 an hour. So I am bringing in way more money than I ever see, just like the student athletes, it goes to cover overhead and pad my bosses wallet. So I see nothing wrong with it, but I am all for changing some of the 'legalese' in how the scholarships work and how schools define STUDENT-athletes if it stops the lawyers and saves the game. Pay them no, give them much longer lasting medical attention, full meals, full value of scholarship, better testing and better advice heck yeah. The system (NCAA) isn't broke it just ain't perfect.

I would also like to see how fast the players would go scrambling back to the way it is now when they have to pay taxes on the scholarships, and what happens when they blow through the 23,000 bucks on food, video games, women and cars and can't PAY TO GO TO SCHOOL (HMMM that doesn't sound like a business) and all the additional care they are given. Which I bet isn't in Obamacare so the schools will have to pay the fines there and a dozen other problems that don't exist now because they aren't employees, they are students.

I am not saying I have all the answers, but until someone can make me see the problems it isn't time to tear the system down, which is exactly what is going to happen if all this nonsense goes through.
 
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Again I don't see the problem of the NCAA 'setting' the value of the scholarship,

I don't see why its any of the NCAAs business as to the "value" of anything, so yes, I do have a problem with the whole ball game. No other business does or would be allowed to operate like this.

They settled one, hundreds, if not thousands to go, they will just keep coming until one day an Attorney General shows up at the door or the FBI like what happened to the Bowl stuff.
 
I don't see why its any of the NCAAs business as to the "value" of anything, so yes, I do have a problem with the whole ball game. No other business does or would be allowed to operate like this.

They settled one, hundreds, if not thousands to go, they will just keep coming until one day an Attorney General shows up at the door or the FBI like what happened to the Bowl stuff.

Did you not read my last post? The real world does operate this way. Many professional organizations set the standard rate for employees (which establishes a minimum but allows for variances) and many other things, as well as basics for other items, health care, pension/401k. It is up to each of the schools to set their independent scholarship value, aka tuition/room & board, food etc etc, for a year. Then it is up to the student to make the most out of that. If the student doesn't like the 23,000 dollar education he is getting at UT he can go to Northwestern and get a $69,000 education instead. Again I don't see the students as employees so I don't see how it is relevant. As much as I try to keep up with the arguments going on there seem to be some many simple flaws in the base argument, I can't argue that we aren't at this point.

If you have a problem with the collegiate system why aren't you also complaining about high school athletics, and even some middle schools I know offer athletic scholarships? Where do you draw the line, I don't think either side thought this through and now everybody is looking to 'get theirs' even though it is not theirs to get, and it is going to ruin something that had no major problem to begin with.
 
Did you not read my last post? The real world does operate this way. Many professional organizations set the standard rate for employees (which establishes a minimum but allows for variances) and many other things, as well as basics for other items, health care, pension/401k.

Sorry the U.S. does not operate that way, in general, although there are unions, and collective bargaining. I fails to see your point.

It is up to each of the schools to set their independent scholarship value, aka tuition/room & board, food etc etc, for a year. Then it is up to the student to make the most out of that. If the student doesn't like the 23,000 dollar education he is getting at UT he can go to Northwestern and get a $69,000 education instead.

Well of course, some schools and even some sports are non-scholarship, so? Colluding is the problem ie the schools and the NCAA together.

Again I don't see the students as employees so I don't see how it is relevant. As much as I try to keep up with the arguments going on there seem to be some many simple flaws in the base argument, I can't argue that we aren't at this point.

You can see them as eggs in a basket, doesn't make it so. McDonalds should should classify their employees as student athletes who are getting an education in the sport of flipping burgers.

You are saying I have said is flawed but the National Labor Board has already designated NE football players as "employees". Either way they are they are either "employees" or "contractors", the NCAA has already admitted they are being "compenstated", so at this point you have a problem with the NCAA.

If you have a problem with the collegiate system why aren't you also complaining about high school athletics, and even some middle schools I know offer athletic scholarships? Where do you draw the line, I don't think either side thought this through and now everybody is looking to 'get theirs' even though it is not theirs to get, and it is going to ruin something that had no major problem to begin with.

Each situation, school, program, and player is different and should be evaluated independently just like everything else is done. I see nothing wrong with a school to change their program to eliminate the possibility that they will be classified as "employees"... unfortunately that is not what they are doing.

I fail to see why its anyone's business why or how a player receives compensation, even from third parties, in general.

Ed O'Bannon vs. NCAA trial about paying college athletes, Day 9 - live - ESPN

Now listen to this, in particular the end... where he correctly points out the colleges can't get together to specific "compensation" as to a larger revenue package.

Isaacson asks about multi-million $$ coaching salaries and facilities arms race. Emmert says NCAA has no control over them

I wonder why.:lolabove:

NCAA VP David Berst email in 2007: "Future clean venues (with no ads) and campuses would be putting out heads in the sand."

Emmert's initial financial package at NCAA was $1 .6 million, making him one of top 10 nonprofit CEO in country, according to Isaacson

Mark Schlabach
Isaacson hammering Emmert on NCAA allowing TV networks to use players' images to promote games. Networks make $ from games

Mark Schlabach
Isaacson: "Everyone involved in intercollegiate athletics are professionals -- except the athletes."

Mark Schlabach
Isaacson asked Emmert if A&M player getting paid to say "Drink Coke" at game would be NCAA violation. Emmert: "Perhaps." Isaacson: "perhaps?

Mark Schlabach
Isaacson shows Texas A&M celebrating bowl win in front of table with Kia & Chick-fil-A ads
 
Sometimes I think folks get off track in regards to the O'Bannon lawsuit and with the way the NCAA throws out stuff like little league players getting part of the CWS TV revenue, it's easy to see why.

At issue is Names, Likeness and Image(NLI) which also looks like the National Letter of Intent abbreviation. The NCAA contends that the NLI of student athletes has no value. Testimony from EA sports directly disputes this.

At issue is the term "student athlete", are they (FB and MBB) really students first? Bear Bryant said no a long time ago. The truth is we all know this already, it would seem the term "one and done" contradicts the term student athlete as well.

At issue is the phrase "protect student athletes from outside commercial third parties" or SA's shouldn't be pitch people for products. How many corporate logos are on a college football player's uniform? How many corporate signs, banners are these players standing in front of at the stadium or arena?

Had the NCAA/School Presidents done full cost of tuition, made sure the players were taken care of medically over the course of their careers, done away with the one year scholly and several other steps a long time ago, we might not be here now. It was greed, plain and simple.

I can't count how many times today the NCAA's own internal documents were used against them, they knew they had a problem. Whether it was the over commercialization or the NLI/EA stuff, the 20 hour rule etc...

I can't believe this isn't on TV.
 
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Completely agree, what is funny is the O'Bannon suit is very narrow, much of it was thrown out even, and really does not address the bigger issues the schools/NCAA have.

The testimony is so damaging, not just in this suit but the countless others to follow. I think the schools might want to reconsider their present course, this suit law is nothing, the ones that follow will cost them billions, not millions. Even, if they win this suit, the testimony is so disgusting that its going to be used over and over in the future.

The NCAA doesn't believe they are right, they believe nobody is going to shut them down. I think time will tell. IMO, nothing they are saying makes any rational sense at this point, and they haven't even gotten the hard questions yet.

Good entertainment though.:popcorn:
 

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