DeSantis petitions for grand jury on COVID mRNA vaccines and public advisory board for oversight

#53
#53
lawgator1 said:
Just pointing out that what he said was incorrect.

The pandemic and now the recovery for those responsible enough to get vaccinated has raises a lot of issues about obligations to society at large, anti science sentiment causing people to irrationally turn down an obvious benefit, and the like.

I'll point out, we require a number of things that intrude on personal privacy or choices to participate.

You want your toddler to go to school? They MUST be vaccinated for measles, mumps, rubella, a few others. You want to board an airplane? You have to give up your firearm. You want a driver's license? We test your eyesight.

This is hardly the intrusion the anti science crowd wants it to be for their vague conspiracy theory de jure.
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Here is where we disagree, it was ultimately proven where I work, that they couldn't force you to take a shot. This is where the union stepped in and saved folks from having to MAKE a choice about whether or not to get the vax. Taking an unproven vaccine is an intrusion for many people. Should have stuck with your original argument, you would have come off better in the long run. Everything after your first sentence is liberal blah blah blah.
 
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#54
#54
lawgator1 said:
This is the debate, though. In order to protect the public at large, how far can the government go in requiring a vaccine, as in the case of measles, or conditioning some benefit on obtaining a vaccine, as in the case of Covid.

Its an interesting philosophical debate and one worth having, but it should not be polluted with vague, right wing blog echo chamber claims that there is some real problem, outside the norm of vaccines, with this particular one.
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First of all let's establish: there was a Covid vaccine mandate for many.

Secondly in order to have the debate you suggest, we need information. At the time the information was that these vaccines prevented infection and spread. That information was preliminary. In hindsight we didn't have the proper information to make a sound policy decision. The Biden administration tried to implement mandates on bad information. We didn't have enough of a track record on this to start mandating people to get it. It's debatable whether we have a proper track record now
 
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#55
#55
82_VOL_83 said:
Here is where we disagree, it was ultimately proven where I work, that they couldn't force you to take a shot. This is where the union stepped in and saved folks from having to MAKE a choice about whether or not to get the vax. Taking an unproven vaccine is an intrusion for many people. Should have stuck with your original argument, you would have come off better in the long run. Everything after your first sentence is liberal blah blah blah.
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I think that is where we can have an interesting debate.
 
#56
#56
lawgator1 said:
I think that is where we can have an interesting debate.
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It wouldn't be interesting because you'd still claim victory regardless of any counter argument. I have yet to ever see you concede anything.

It's not only domestically an intrusion but a violation of the code Multiple nations signed in regards to international law.
This Agreement shall come into force on the day of signature and shall remain in force for the period of one year and shall continue thereafter, subject to the right of any signatory to give, through the diplomatic channel, one month’s notice of intentions to terminate it.
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Educate me "law" gator when did we terminate it?

Fifty Years Later: The Significance of the Nuremberg Code | NEJM

The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential.

This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment.

The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity.

2. The experiment should be such as to yield fruitful results for the good of society, unprocurable by other methods or means of study, and not random and unnecessary in nature.

3. The experiment should be so designed and based on the results of animal experimentation and a knowledge of the natural history of the disease or other problem under study that the anticipated results will justify the performance of the experiment.

4. The experiment should be so conducted as to avoid all unnecessary physical and mental suffering and injury.

5. No experiment should be conducted where there is an a priori reason to believe that death or disabling injury will occur; except, perhaps, in those experiments where the experimental physicians also serve as subjects.

6. The degree of risk to be taken should never exceed that determined by the humanitarian importance of the problem to be solved by the experiment.

7. Proper preparations should be made and adequate facilities provided to protect the experimental subject against even remote possibilities of injury, disability, or death.

8. The experiment should be conducted only by scientifically qualified persons. The highest degree of skill and care should be required through all stages of the experiment of those who conduct or engage in the experiment.

9. During the course of the experiment the human subject should be at liberty to bring the experiment to an end if he has reached the physical or mental state where continuation of the experiment seems to him to be impossible.

10. During the course of the experiment the scientist in charge must be prepared to terminate the experiment at any stage, if he has probable cause to believe, in the exercise of the good faith, superior skill, and careful judgment required of him, that a continuation of the experiment is likely to result in injury, disability, or death to the experimental subject.

The Nuremberg Code is the most important document in the history of the ethics of medical research.1-6 The Code was formulated 50 years ago, in August 1947, in Nuremberg, Germany, by American judges sitting in judgment of Nazi doctors accused of conducting murderous and torturous human experiments in the concentration camps (the so-called Doctors' Trial).7 It served as a blueprint for today's principles that ensure the rights of subjects in medical research. Because of its link with the horrors of World War II and the use of prisoners in Nazi concentration camps for medical experimentation, debate continues today about the authority of the Code, its applicability to modern medical research, and even its authorship.1,2,4,5,8 The chief prosecutor at the Doctors' Trial, General Telford Taylor, believed that one of the three U.S. judges, Harold Sebring, was the author of the Code.2 Two American physicians who helped prosecute the Nazi doctors at Nuremberg, Leo Alexander and Andrew Ivy, have each been identified as the Code's author.5,8-11 A careful reading of the transcript of the Doctors' Trial, background documents, and the final judgment reveals that authorship was shared and that the famous 10 principles of the Code grew out of the trial itself.
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#57
#57
lawgator1 said:
I think that is where we can have an interesting debate.
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I don't know that there is anything to debate. The vaccines you mentioned to go to school were proven and have been proven over time to be safe and effective. The Covid vaccine was unproven and has been shown over time to be effective at lessening symptoms but ineffective in preventing the disease. There is also data that shows that in a relatively large percentage of people (as compared to other proven vaccines) that it can cause harm. It continues to be studied and I think ultimately will be shown to be harmful to some people. I got the first two and one booster. I WILL NOT be getting anything else until a safe vaccine comes out. I personally don't believe this one safe.

And no, I don't give a crap how much you "think" it helped society, it should never have been mandated in it's unproven form.
 
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#59
#59
Sgt_Nick_Fury said:
It wouldn't be interesting because you'd still claim victory regardless of any counter argument. I have yet to ever see you concede anything.

It's not only domestically an intrusion but a violation of the code Multiple nations signed in regards to international law.


Educate me "law" gator when did we terminate it?

Fifty Years Later: The Significance of the Nuremberg Code | NEJM
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Just in the last day or so I stated here that I changed my opinion about the transgender nuke policy guy and think he's nuts.
 
#61
#61
lawgator1 said:
Yeah, Ladapo is not exactly the face you want to put on anything medical. But that's why DeSantis gave him the job.

Yet another stunt by DeSantis to coopt the Trump base. And they'll fall for it, hook, line, and sinker.
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Ladapo’s confirmation hearings were hilarious.

He does exactly what DeSantis tells him to do.
 
#63
#63
This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in weeks, and it's the top headline tonight. I know covid researchers, and they are snotting over this headline. It's why you don't trust the media any more. 4564EEDA-20CF-4003-A4BF-55BC2AF76433.jpeg
 
#64
#64
TALLAHASSEE (FLV) – The Florida Supreme Court granted Gov. Ron DeSantis’ request to impanel a statewide grand jury to investigate mRNA vaccine manufacturers.

The statewide grand jury will be allowed to investigate groups involved in the design, development, clinical testing, marketing, and distribution of vaccines said to prevent COVID-19 infection, symptoms, and transmission. It will be impaneled for one year.

DeSantis' Grand Jury Impaneled to Investigate mRNA Vaccine Manufacturers - Florida’s Voice
 
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#67
#67
Facts About Grand Juries Everyone Should Know😊

Grand Juries are independent courts of inquiry.

What does this mean?

Grand Juries, once impaneled, are independent of any branch of the government.

This is so they can investigate any branch of the government without obstruction, restriction, or undue influence.

As such, Grand Juries decide what they will investigate and have the independent power to expand the scope of their investigation beyond what they were initially impaneled to investigate.

Grand Juries don't have to ask a judge or DA for permission to investigate anything potentially criminal.

This is confirmed by the recent Florida Supreme Court Order for case SC22-1710.

" The matters to be inquired into are any offense listed in section 905.34 that:

...other criminal activity or wrongdoing that the statewide grand jury uncovers during the course of the investigation if it determines that pursuing the criminal activity or wrongdoing is in the best interests of the investigation;"

https://efactssc-public.flcourts.org/casedocuments/2022/1710/2022-1710_disposition_157361_d04i.pdf
 
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#68
#68
Florida is the sickest state in the union. As soon as you cross the boarder you will be exposed to every cold, flu, and contagion known to man. It is the sickest place on planet earth.

You have never seen a more retched hive of villainy and scum.
 
#69
#69
IluvdoubleD's said:
Florida is the sickest state in the union. As soon as you cross the boarder you will be exposed to every cold, flu, and contagion known to man. It is the sickest place on planet earth.

You have never seen a more retched hive of villainy and scum.
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LOL!!! I'd say our border states in the southwest hold that title with millions from third world countries streaming into them.
 
#70
#70
lawgator1 said:
Yeah, Ladapo is not exactly the face you want to put on anything medical. But that's why DeSantis gave him the job.

Yet another stunt by DeSantis to coopt the Trump base. And they'll fall for it, hook, line, and sinker.
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Fauci and whatever that surgeon general thing is are far better representatives.
 
#72
#72
lawgator1 said:
Just pointing out that what he said was incorrect.

The pandemic and now the recovery for those responsible enough to get vaccinated has raises a lot of issues about obligations to society at large, anti science sentiment causing people to irrationally turn down an obvious benefit, and the like.

I'll point out, we require a number of things that intrude on personal privacy or choices to participate.

You want your toddler to go to school? They MUST be vaccinated for measles, mumps, rubella, a few others. You want to board an airplane? You have to give up your firearm. You want a driver's license? We test your eyesight.

This is hardly the intrusion the anti science crowd wants it to be for their vague conspiracy theory de jure.
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Right. Because all of those things are exactly like an experimental drug that has no history, the manufacturer was held blameless and the KNOWN side effects were to be hidden for 70 years.
 
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#73
#73
#74
#74
IluvdoubleD's said:
Florida is the sickest state in the union. As soon as you cross the boarder you will be exposed to every cold, flu, and contagion known to man. It is the sickest place on planet earth.

You have never seen a more retched hive of villainy and scum.
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Exactly. Stay away.
 
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#75
#75
Looks like India is also investigating the cause of the increase in sudden deaths

"India media reports a growing number of sudden cardiac arrests, including incidence of heart attacks, and the apex research institute seeks to understand why via a study. The Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) has launched an investigation examining cases involving sudden cardiac arrest reports across the world’s second most populous nation and sixth largest economy as measured by gross domestic product. Could these sudden incidences, including deaths, be linked to COVID-19 or the COVID-19 vaccines? ICMR investigators aim to find out with the help of some of the nation’s top cardiologists and other experts from the All-India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS). By examining cases, this examination will accumulate data and associated conditions of the deceased in a “verbal autopsy” method of study."

Indian Government Launches Formal Study--Are Rising Sudden Cardiac Arrests Linked to the COVID-19 Vaccines?
 
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