Did He Seriously Pick Panetta....

I got your joke, but what has he done to make you think so? Everything he has done is offensive oriented. His BRAC rejuvenation plan is bad no matter how you try and frame it.
I haven't paid much attention to it since it doesn't concern me any more.

I happen to think offensive oriented and aggressive leaders are better than the Longstreet type.

I know some really smart, really senior officers (one likely to be Army Chief in not too many years and Chair, JCS thereafter) who think he was exceptionally bright and regularly challenged everyone to rethink what they were doing. He was still a civilian and a pol, but that he was always moving the right direction.
 
I haven't paid much attention to it since it doesn't concern me any more.

I happen to think offensive oriented and aggressive leaders are better than the Longstreet type.

I know some really smart, really senior officers (one likely to be Army Chief in not too many years and Chair, JCS thereafter) who think he was exceptionally bright and regularly challenged everyone to rethink what they were doing. He was still a civilian and a pol, but that he was always moving the right direction.

I don't disagree with him being good at what he does and I fully support his elite forces doing the workload. But moving all bases into one or two concentrated centers is ludicrous. His view is best for America's defense interests abroad, not at home.
 
I don't disagree with him being good at what he does and I fully support his elite forces doing the workload. But moving all bases into one or two concentrated centers is ludicrous. His view is best for America's defense interests abroad, not at home.
fair enough, but I like the idea of a guy facing the problems abroad rather than here at the hizzy.
 
Not entirely true. In the least. He didn't understand entirely what was going on in Iraq when he was making specific decisions.

There are things that will change and there are things that will not ever change as far as war-fighting. Reading Tom Clancy or learning from a classroom does not equal viable and realistic experience fighting a war.
The Department of Defense took the fall for the failures of the State Department in 2003 and 2004.
 
fair enough, but I like the idea of a guy facing the problems abroad rather than here at the hizzy.

of course we all agree its best to fight problems abroad and he was mostly good at that. And that is the best defense.

But that doesn't mean the homeland is completely untouchable.
 
of course we all agree its best to fight problems abroad and he was mostly good at that. And that is the best defense.

But that doesn't mean the homeland is completely untouchable.
no argument. I just don't know much about the base realignment. I do know that economics was driving the train more than strategy.
 
no argument. I just don't know much about the base realignment. I do know that economics was driving the train more than strategy.

That may be true, I don't know either? I also am not sure of what is planned out for the Army or Air Force. Navy is supposed to move to one mega base on each coast trending towards Norfolk and San Diego. I for one do not like having one base for each side of the world, shut one down and your quick reaction forces, force projection and mainland defense just evaporated.

Just to be clear that is the goal for the Navy as put forth by BRAC. The chances of this happening are probably slim to none, since state politicians have and will fight this to their graves. It was just a dumb idea that I like to argue about.
 
Just to be clear that is the goal for the Navy as put forth by BRAC. The chances of this happening are probably slim to none, since state politicians have and will fight this to their graves. It was just a dumb idea that I like to argue about.
The Navy portion was lame because nobody thought it through. Who gives enough of a crap about the Navy to think hard about it. It's only hearsay, but I understand he's no lover of Seamen.
 
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I know some really smart, really senior officers (one likely to be Army Chief in not too many years and Chair, JCS thereafter) who think he was exceptionally bright and regularly challenged everyone to rethink what they were doing. He was still a civilian and a pol, but that he was always moving the right direction.

I'm curious to know what some of your senior officer friends might think of Wesley Clark??


Interviews with a wide variety of current and retired military officials reveal that Clark was disliked by only three groups: Those whom ranked above him in the chain of command whom he ignored, his peers at the same rank whom he lied to, and those serving beneath him whom he micromanaged. Other than that, everyone liked him.
 
They think amazingly little of him. Knowing the guy personally, I agree.

Personally, I think he is completely off his rocker.

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I'm a little surprised Obama hasn't named him to some cabinet level posting yet.

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Col. David Hackworth, in his 1999 commentary Defending America, wrote of Clark: "Known by those who've served with him as the Ultimate Perfumed Prince, he's far more comfortable in a drawing room discussing political theories than hunkering down in the trenches where bullets fly and soldiers die."

Col. Jatras writes that "General Clark is the kind of general we saw too often during the Vietnam War and hoped never to see again in a position of responsibility for the lives of our GIs and the security of our nation. That it happened once again we can thank that other Rhodes scholar from Arkansas."

“I would have been a Republican,” Clark told two prominent Colorado Republicans last January, (2003) “if Karl Rove had returned my phone calls.” (Meticulous White House telephone logs, reports the Weekly Standard, show no calls ever made by Clark to Rove.)

Weasly Clark will go down in history as the general who delivered the heartland of Christian Serbia to the advancing armies of Islam.

General Clark brags about the fact that not one solder was killed under his command. (but 82 American civilians at Waco did.)

Even though the Serbs had every opportunity to kill American soldiers. The Serbs did not want Americans to die at their hands. This was illustrated when Sgt. Christopher Stone of Smiths Creek, Michigan, upon his release, left a note to his prison guards thanking them for treating him with "dignity and respect."

The Pentagon declined to release a copy of Stone's note, but a copy was made available to The Associated Press (5 May 1999).

The note ended with "Thank you, you are very kind" and "God help you."
 
he's called "Weasely" Clark for good reason.

A first hand account by a witness in Yugoslavia. May 15, 2006:

As part of a U.S. military planning staff, I (amongst other educated U.S. military officers) attempted to warn the amazingly insane and emotionally unstable Gen Wesley Clark that his intentions would lead only to the following:

1) We would facilitate the establishment of a Muslim state in Kosovo.

2) This would be the second Muslim state to established in the heart of Europe, following Bosnia, in just three years. What might the consequences be?

3) This would grow into a very painful experience for Europe and the U.S. 10-20 years down the road.

4) We would enforce Serbia's perception that they are the bastard stepchild of Western Civilization.

Clark fired over twenty of his top intelligence analysts for briefing these views to him. He persisted with his fantasy that the Kosovar Albanians were as pure and clean as the wind-driven snow; innocent victims of a simple Serbian compulsion for evil. Yeah, right!

Clark was clueless and a madman. Behind closed doors, the overwhelming majority of officers on the EUCOM planning team thought he was INSANE.

However, after he fired the first several, everyone got the picture. Cook the intel to make the Kosovars look like angels and the Serbs like demons.

Clark had a demented and paranoid beef with Milo because the Serbian President showed the American General no deferrence whatsoever during Dayton negotiations with Ambassador Holbrook, for whom Clark was a bag carrier/military aide.

I was also in Bosnia for seven months as a human intelligence officer; the most civilized persons I met with overall, were Serbs. The most frightening, Muslims. The place was crawling with mujahideen who were only there, of course, because the Americans had done nothing to save the Muslims. Dirty pajamas, long beards, AK's, the works. I know, because I disarmed them myself.

I visited a Catholic Church in a (former) Half-Croat/Half-Muslim town, Gornji Vakuf. The church had been razed, burned, and the alter lined with 110 young Croats who were summarily executed, along with the Parish Priest.

On the rectory was spray painted the words, "There is no more time for you here." In other parts of the town, many walls and buildings were spray painted with the words, "Mismo Hamas," which is Serbo-Croat for, "I am Hamas." In fairness, I did see a noticeable amount of "Ustace" (nazi) "U's" (by Croat/Bosnian and Albanian Nazis) spray painted in other towns, too.

Milo was a bastard. That said, the Serbs are the most maligned and heroic of our brothers in Europe. After the battle of the Field of Blackbirds alone, they should be praised as heros that should stand alongside Charlamegne and the boys who stormed Normandy, on opposite ends of the temporal octave of late Western Civilization.

And I'm Croatian!
------------------------------------

Talk about a weasel of the first order.

I had to replace my modem a while back and the guy who did it for me was supposed to download all my files but didn't.

I had a video of a press briefing presided over by Clark, (who looked for all the world like he had just shot up and eight ball), and during the question/answer session a courageous USAF officer asked Weasel some rather pointed questions which he couldn't even attempt to answer in an intelligent manner.

There was something horribly, horribly wrong at the top of a chain of command that duplicated Hitler in ordering the bombing of Belgrade to start on Easter Sunday morning when parents were taking their dressed up children to Easter services, and targeted child day care centers, hospitals, retirement homes and a zoo, among other 'military' targets.

What a travesty!!

The people of Serbia would never have even voted in Milosevic except for the horribly one sided mishandling of the Balkan situation by the Clinton administration in the beginning, starting with Croatian military action against Serbs who had lived in the are since 822.

(briefly:
On May 1, 1995, the Croatian Army attacked and overran United Nations Protected Area Sector West, the Serbian majority region of Western Slavonija, killing over 3,300 Serbian civilians of the Republika Srpska Krajina, demolishing Serbian houses, and ethnically cleansing over 20,000, who fled to Bosnia and Serbia.

In this ''UN Protected Area'', Serbian civilians were killed and their homes destroyed and looted by Croat soldiers as UN peacekeepers stood by, in the following villages: Pankovac, Medari, Smrtic, Vrbovljani, Donji Bogicevci, Gradjani, and Covac.

Croat aircraft and artillery shelled a refugee column of 2,000 near Nova Varos, killing a reported 200 men, women, and children.

In launching the military offensive, code named 'Operation Lightning,' the Croat government of Franjo Tudjman grossly and flagrantly violated UN Security Council Resolutions protecting the human rights of the Serbian population of the UN Protected Area, Sector West. The Croatian government had the diplomatic, political, and military support of the United States and Germany. US Ambassador to Croatia, Peter Galbraith even sat in on high-level Croat military meetings which planned military operations against the UN Protected Areas. Croatia was a ''client state'' and the ''White House and the State Department were hoping the Croats would deal the Serbs a blow.'' The UN and NATO did nothing to protect the UN Protected Area. Air strikes were not called by the UN although UN posts and UN peacekeepers were the first targets of the Croat forces.

The Jasenovac Memorial Museum and Center, a memorial to the hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies murdered by the Croatian NDH government from 1941 to 1945, were looted, desecrated, and heavily damaged. The UN and the so-called international community did nothing. The Serbian majority population of Western Slavonija, a so-called UN Protected Area, was eradicated and ethnically cleansed, their homes were looted, destroyed, and burned. For ethnic Serbs, it was a repeat of the past. Serbs were condemned to repeat the past within a short interval of fifty years. Those Serbs who survived the NDH genocide witnessed a repeat of history, a 'final solution'.

On August 4, 1995, the Croat government launched a massive military offensive against UN Protected Areas, Sectors South and North, the Serbian majority area of Krajina. The Croat offensive was launched with the shelling of Knin, bombarded with 10,000 shells on August 4 and 5. As with the earlier attack on UN Protected Area, Sector West, the Croat Army first attacked UN peacekeepers and their posts. In the initial assault, 3 UN peacekeepers were killed, one from Denmark and two from the Czech Republic,while 20 other UN peacekeepers were wounded. The UN reported that ''their death is the result of a direct artillery attack by the Croatian Army on their observer post.'' The UN and NATO, however, took no action.

Indeed, US NATO aircraft bombed Krajina Serb missile batteries in Knin! NATO was in fact supporting the Croat offensive against a UN Protected Area! US Ambassador Galbraith and US Ambassador to the UN Madeleine Albright did nothing, even though the Croat Army was overrunning a UN Protected Area which the UN had itself established.

On August 9, near Vrginmost, British journalist John Scoffield was deliberately killed at close range by Croat soldiers. Scoffield was part of a BBC crew which was filming Serbian houses being torched by Croat troops. Two of Scoffieldâs colleagues were wounded.

UN Spokesman Chris Gunness stated that the goal of the Croat offensive was part of a systematic and planned strategy to terrorize Serbian civilians to force them to flee their homes in Krajina: ''We suspect that the goal of this war was to drive people off their territory and take their land. We are confronting a looming humanitarian disaster.''

David Rohde, in the Christian Science Monitor of August 7, 1995, reported that ''few governments - most noticeably the US - are voicing concern over how the Croatian operation is being conducted.'' The majority Serbian population of Krajina was being butchered and ethnically cleansed as if they were cattle or swine. German Chancellor Helmut Kohl went on vacation. European diplomats were unconcerned, even though in theory at least, the Croat attack, which included over 100,000 regular army troops, threatened to plunge Europe into the largest war since World War II. But apparently they knew something which they were not telling. They knew the Krajina would be allowed to fall and that its Serbian majority would be butchered like cattle or swine and ethnically cleansed from their ancestral lands. The US State Department justified the attack on the grounds that Croatia was establishing control over its 'internationally recognized borders.''

Knin, which had a pre-war majority Serbian population of 88% was looted and burned and its Serbian inhabitants were forced to flee. Over 300,000 Krajina Serbs would be ethnically cleansed in the largest single act of ethnic cleansing during the entire Yugoslav conflict. Only this time, the ethnic cleansing would be done with the tacit approval and guidance of the US government and media.

As a client state of the US, a Balkan banana republic, the ''fledgling democracy'' of Croatia need not be concerned with the human rights of the Krajina Serbs. Accordingly, the Croat forces wasted no time in completely cleansing the majority Serbian Krajina region, butchering those elderly Serbs that chose to remain.

(continued)
 
Tom Hundley, in the Chicago Tribune, September 11, 1995, in ''Elderly massacred in Krajina attack'', reported the following:

On August 25, Croatian troops entered Grubori and killed everyone they found. These included: Marija Grubor, 90, whose charred remains were found in her burned house. Milos Grubor, 80, an invalid who was found in his bedroom, shot once in the head and once in the back. The killers attempted to set the house on fire... Jovo Grubor, 65, whose throat was slit and who had been stabbed repeatedly ... Djuro Kavanovic ... and Mika Grubor... who were found together in a pasture, both shot in the head at close range... ''In Radinovic, five corpses identified to be those of elderly Serbs, ages 55 to 70... were shown to UN civilian police... One of the corpses, identified as Nikola Panic, an invalid, was decapitated.'' The head was discovered a short distance away, in a pig sty... Most of the houses... have been ransacked and torched.

Monitors from the European Union prepared the following report on the ethnic cleansing and atrocities in Krajina:

Evidence of atrocities, an average of six corpses per day, continues to emerge.The corpses, some fresh, some decomposed, are mainly of old men. Many have been shot in the back of the head or had throats slit, others have been mutilated...Serb lands continue to be torched and looted... The crimes have been perpetrated by the HV (Croatian Army) the CR (Croatian) police and CR civilians. There have been no observed attempts to stop it...

On August 11, 1995, the EU Monitoring Mission found the body of an old man with a gun shot wound to the head in the village of Golubac. On August 27, in the village of Gosic, the bodies of 7 massacred Serb civilians were found, all about 70 years old. On September 11, the bodies of two women were found, killed by gun shots to the head at close range. On September 28, in the village of Varivode near Kistanje, 9 elderly Serbian civilians, from 65 to 80 years of age, were found massacred in front of their houses. The UN found 4 bodies near Knin, 3 with bullet wounds to the head. The right hand finger of one of the bodies had been amputated. The fourth body was mutilated beyond recognition.

In this US and German sponsored attack, Operation Storm, modeled on Nazi blitzkrieg strategy (the Nazi strategy of 'lightning war') and the US Gulf War Operation Desert Storm, the Croats engaged in a large-scale planned and systematic destruction and plunder of all Serbian dwellings, industrial facilities, hospitals, schools, and churches and historical monuments. The Orthodox Krka Monastery, built in the 14th century, was destroyed and looted, as were 43 other Orthodox churches in the Bukovice and Ravni Kotari regions. The 15th century Krupa Orthodox monastery was burned down by the Croatian army.

On September 27,1995, a UN spokesperson reported that UN military observers had visited 240 villages in former Sector South and had found that 73% of the buildings had been burned down. In an October 12, 1995 report, the UN stated that UN observers had visited 389 villages in Sector South and had found that 16,578 houses had been burned down or severely damaged.

In launching this massive attack, the Croat government received not only the diplomatic and political support of
the US and Germany, but also US and German military support.


Routinely, Jumbo jets from Iran would bring massive shipments of arms to Zagreb openly. These massive arms shipments to Croatia from Iran and other Islamic countries were difficult to miss.


The US government, however, allowed illegal arms shipments to continue to flow to Croatia, in flagrant
contravention of the UN arms embargo imposed on the former Yugoslavia, an embargo the US voted for. But in 1994, the US unilaterally announced that it would break the UN arms embargo for Croatia and the Bosnian Muslims. Weapons and military equipment flowed into Croatia.

(ironically though, Bobby Fisher became a fugitive for playing a game of chess in the region, such a threat to national security.)gs

In the attacks on Western Slavonija and Krajina, roughly over 300,000 Serbs were ethnically cleansed and thousands murdered and their houses burned, looted and destroyed in what amounted to genocide with flagrant crimes against humanity and war crimes on a massive scale showing an utter disregard for human rights. For the genocide and ethnic cleansing of the majority Serbian population of Krajina, no charges were brought against the Croatian government. No charges were brought for crimes against humanity under the 1949 Geneva Conventions and the statutes of the UN War Crimes Tribunal at the Hague. No violations of the laws or customs of war charge was brought, although recognized by the 1949 Geneva Conventions and the Hague Tribunal. No charges were brought for grave breaches for inhumane treatment although recognized by the Hague Tribunal.

Serbs had first settled the Krajina region in 822 AD. During the 16th and 17th centuries, Lika, Kordun, Slavonija, Banija, and Srem were settled by Serbian families invited by the Austrian government to form military garrisons to defend the frontier against the incursions of the Muslim Ottoman Turks. This region was a majority Serb area known as the Srpska Vojna Krajina, or the Serbian Military Frontier Province. The Serbian population of Croatia was almost a quarter of the total Croat population before World War II. Following the NDH genocide from 1941 to 1945, the Serbian population was reduced to 12% of the total Croat population. Following the attacks on Western Slavonija and Krajina, less than 2% of the total Croat population is made up of Serbs. From 1991 to 1995, over 650,000 Serbs have been ethnically cleansed from Croatia.

Helsinki Human Rights Watch reported that over 10,000 Serbian houses have been destroyed in Croatia in a planned and systematic campaign, called a 'dynamite campaign':

Since 1991,the Croatian authorities have blown up or razed 10,000 houses, mostly of Serbs... In some cases,they dynamited homes with the families inside. Whole families were killed. Many were wounded.

The Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate in Belgrade reported that 100 of the 156 Orthodox churches in Croatia had been destroyed.Thus, the Serbian presence in Krajina and Croatia has been 'eliminated without trace'.)

A reminder of the words of Slobadan Milosevic from his International Court trial transcript on 9/27/02:

“So he is holding a head, the head of a Serb that he cut off. So those are the 20,000 Mujahedin that were brought to the European theatre of war through Clinton's policy, and most of them remained there and some went to America and to other countries, and they went all around Europe. And then when they start beheading your own people in wars to come, then you will know what this is all about."


That reminds me of a reply to me from a Slovenian when I asked him what he thought of America's Balkan policy;

"You do know the Muslims cut your head off if you don't become a Muslim, don't you?"
 

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