Did He Seriously Pick Panetta....

#76
#76
BigPapaVol said:
no doubt those folks have some invaluable experience and knowledge that he dismissed.

I don't the think the plans were the same for the two countries. The occupation of Iraq was the problem and probably not one that could have been solved. It was going to be ugly and painful regardless of our approach.
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Iraq was bound to be far more difficult because of what we were wanting to accomplish and how it was further exacerbated by who we were fighting.
 
#78
#78
BigPapaVol said:
no doubt those folks have some invaluable experience and knowledge that he dismissed.

I don't the think the plans were the same for the two countries. The occupation of Iraq was the problem and probably not one that could have been solved. It was going to be ugly and painful regardless of our approach.
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His original plan was the same it evolved later when the heat got intense.

The following occupation of Iraq was the problem and he should have forseen it, since he had experience in this from Vietnam. He actually was the one that argued that civilian command was in too much control during Vietnam and then turned around and did the same thing himself in Iraq. Speed, which is what he wanted, would have helped immensly with a much larger force, which he did not, in the Iraq aftermath.

Something tells me you and I would agree on most everything about this, hopefully you get my nit picking of details.
 
#79
#79
DC Vol said:
Not a challenge, but I'm curious as to what you would think would be more complicated?

I also left out "engagement" following "military".
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D day was enormously complicated, as was the breakout from Normandy. We have pulled off tougher feats, but are still never going to be very good at being a policing force. It's not a good function of our military.
 
#80
#80
MontereyVol said:
His original plan was the same it evolved later when the heat got intense.

The following occupation of Iraq was the problem and he should have forseen it, since he had experience in this from Vietnam. He actually was the one that argued that civilian command was in too much control during Vietnam and then turned around and did the same thing himself in Iraq. Speed, which is what he wanted, would have helped immensly with a much larger force, which he did not, in the Iraq aftermath.

Something tells me you and I would agree on most everything about this, hopefully you get my nit picking of details.
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I think we're generally in agreement.
 
#81
#81
What Major Malcom Powers USMC not available to take this post?
 
#82
#82
DC Vol said:
Not a challenge, but I'm curious as to what you would think would be more complicated?

I also left out "engagement" following "military".
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Don't worry about arguing with me, I tend to like opposing viewpoints.

I took what you said as a point in we have never dealt with something like an insurgency of the type we are facing now. This is nothing new in the history of war and Alexander solved the problem. The immergence of the western world after that ruined war and will probably destroy nations in the future who try to stick to the PC type of fighting that is becoming the norm for us only.
 
#83
#83
BigPapaVol said:
D day was enormously complicated, as was the breakout from Normandy. We have pulled off tougher feats, but are still never going to be very good at being a policing force. It's not a good function of our military.
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Iraq, as a whole, is much more complicated. I refuse to believe that if the media was picking apart every civilian home that was wrecked or person killed as a result of being in a warzone that there would have continued to be public support which was, believe it or not, starting to wane at that point.

I'm not talking about the 2-week invasion, but the entire operation and occupation.
 
#84
#84
MontereyVol said:
Don't worry about arguing with me, I tend to like opposing viewpoints.

I took what you said as a point in we have never dealt with something like an insurgency of the type we are facing now. This is nothing new in the history of war and Alexander solved the problem. The immergence of the western world after that ruined war and will probably destroy nations in the future who try to stick to the PC type of fighting that is becoming the norm for us only.
Click to expand...

Correct the military policing on foreign soil only works well when you enforce it with an iron fist. They have to fear you.
 
#85
#85
MontereyVol said:
Don't worry about arguing with me, I tend to like opposing viewpoints.

I took what you said as a point in we have never dealt with something like an insurgency of the type we are facing now. This is nothing new in the history of war and Alexander solved the problem. The immergence of the western world after that ruined war and will probably destroy nations in the future who try to stick to the PC type of fighting that is becoming the norm for us only.
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harrumph. It's either total war or no war for me. I'm not about the limited war stuff. That way, when we come, there's no doubt about who's getting killed: every swinging richard up in the joint.
 
#86
#86
MontereyVol said:
Don't worry about arguing with me, I tend to like opposing viewpoints.

I took what you said as a point in we have never dealt with something like an insurgency of the type we are facing now. This is nothing new in the history of war and Alexander solved the problem. The immergence of the western world after that ruined war and will probably destroy nations in the future who try to stick to the PC type of fighting that is becoming the norm for us only.
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That is the keystone of my arguement. It is generally agreed on that urban warfare and occupation is the most, without a doubt, complicated way of conducting war without even adding in the complete lack of understanding the diffence in cultures.

Comparing Alexander to Iraq modern day is apples to oranges.
 
#87
#87
DC Vol said:
Iraq, as a whole, is much more complicated. I refuse to believe that if the media was picking apart every civilian home that was wrecked or person killed as a result of being in a warzone that there would have continued to be public support which was, believe it or not, starting to wane at that point.

I'm not talking about the 2-week invasion, but the entire operation and occupation.
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I don't believe you'll find Iraq as a whole more complicated than the European theatre in WWII. The Civil War was more complicated.

Iraq was complicated by the fact that we were trying to appease the press in keeping numbers down, numbers that we knew were insufficient.
 
#88
#88
BigPapaVol said:
harrumph. It's either total war or no war for me. I'm not about the limited war stuff. That way, when we come, there's no doubt about who's getting killed: every swinging richard up in the joint.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of a quote Colin Powell said regarding Somalia to the effect of "losing 18 in a day in Vietnam was nothing to be concerned about if anything a light day".

I think it really does start with the media feeling it should be entitled and embedded in the military and bedpals with current operations.


Just a curiosity BPV and Mont, what were/are your job fields in the military?
 
#89
#89
BigPapaVol said:
I don't believe you'll find Iraq as a whole more complicated than the European theatre in WWII. The Civil War was more complicated.

Iraq was complicated by the fact that we were trying to appease the press in keeping numbers down, numbers that we knew were insufficient.
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The press was actually on our side in WWII...
 
#90
#90
DC Vol said:
Reminds me of a quote Colin Powell said regarding Somalia to the effect of "losing 18 in a day in Vietnam was nothing to be concerned about if anything a light day".

I think it really does start with the media feeling it should be entitled and embedded in the military and bedpals with current operations.


Just a curiosity BPV and Mont, what were/are your job fields in the military?
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I was an aviation officer with all kinds of jobs, but learned the most when I took a position way over my head as a corps G3 Air officer.
 
#94
#94
BigPapaVol said:
I don't believe you'll find Iraq as a whole more complicated than the European theatre in WWII. The Civil War was more complicated.

Iraq was complicated by the fact that we were trying to appease the press in keeping numbers down, numbers that we knew were insufficient.
Click to expand...

Media accountablity is definitely part of it, but is not the whole of the complications of the war we're fighting.

Basically when Saddam Hussein was ousted, we were thrust in the middle of a civil war within Iraq as well as trying to bring an end to Al Qaeda Iraq. AQI was entirely using the ongoing civil war as a shield and fuel to the fire to make the occupation and stabilization harder. Iraq is a lot more than just IEDs.
 
#95
#95
I'm on medical Hiatus from my true duties and awaiting word to return or not? Currently I do stuff for those who will remain nameless.
 
#96
#96
DC Vol said:
Media accountablity is definitely part of it, but is not the whole of the complications of the war we're fighting.

Basically when Saddam Hussein was ousted, we were thrust in the middle of a civil war within Iraq as well as trying to bring an end to Al Qaeda Iraq. AQI was entirely using the ongoing civil war as a shield and fuel to the fire to make the occupation and stabilization harder. Iraq is a lot more than just IEDs.
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but all those third party stakeholders are always present in any governmental changeover. The conclusion of WWII was massively difficult, but the press simply didn't cover it. We were in Germany for the ensuing 60 years.
 
#98
#98
BigPapaVol said:
but all those third party stakeholders are always present in any governmental changeover. The conclusion of WWII was massively difficult, but the press simply didn't cover it. We were in Germany for the ensuing 60 years.
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The conclusion of WWII was far more concise because lessons learned from the end of WWI were implemented.

The cultural differences inbetween occupying Germany and Iraq are enormous. Japan could be seen as somewhat similiar from a cultural basis, but the moral of the country was entirely broken, and would have been different had there been house-to-house fighting and interference from Korea, China, etc...
 
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