Does anybody actually support ObamaCare?

#27
#27
nope i don't support this bill, regardless the fact that only one senator knows everything that's in this bill should raise some questions.
 
#28
#28
KB5252 said:
Yes, his track record has already proven that pledge meant squat. I'm sorry pj, but I feel I must inform you that "change" he promised in Washington politics isn't going to come to fruition, I guess he changed his mind and likes the games of politics played just the way they have been for some time.
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well crap, that's what I get for believing a politician from Chicago would be different. I'm just so disappointed
 
#30
#30
volfanjustin said:
My guess is that their next project will be legalizing all 20 million illegal aliens.
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they have to know that they're going to get creamed in '10 after this... they'll probably try to cram as much through as they can..

illegals would be one, and cap and trade another...
 
#31
#31
Daddy Gee said:
they have to know that they're going to get creamed in '10 after this... they'll probably try to cram as much through as they can..

illegals would be one, and cap and trade another...
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Yea they know they are done in 2010, I agree with you that they will try to ram through as much of this liberal garbage as they can since they know their time is limited.

I am not so sure about cap and trade, they may try it but I think it may go down. It looks like they are letting the EPA go around congress and start putting these policies into place.
 
#33
#33
jackaro said:
I support the bill and am actually grateful to have this opportunity. First let my classify myself politically because it is so relevant. I am very Liberal in all things not related to gun rights and state rights.

The bill sets up exchanges, that regulate the insurance industry. If ever there was an industry that needs to be regulated it is the insurance industry. All the control you seem to feel we are giving to the government on health care, is not being given to the government. The existing insurance system will stay in tact, just be regulated (such a good thing).

All the arguments about the government controlling what doctor you can go to, what treatments will be paid for, and how the government will control peoples lives is wrong. Insurance companies do this now and have been for a long time, but since there is no public option the government will have absolutely no hand in this.

So many abuses by the insurance companies have ruined peoples lives, that is why the insurance companies need to be regulated. I have so much more to say, but this got long, so I will wait for a few more posters, respond to them, and finish what I like about the bill later.

Thank you for starting this thread, I hope to debate many of you and look forward to it.
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Wow, another righteous government wacko.

:banghead2:

So why do you hate freedom?
 
#34
#34
I think everyone is missing the most important point here. The thousands dying in the streets of America have been spared.
 
#36
#36
TNvol86 said:
Anyone?
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I'm a Vol so I'll volunteer for that duty.

Why I support Obamacare:

I support obamacare because I have complete faith in Uncle Sam who is like Santa and the Easter Bunny wrapped up in one and then some.

I know I will feel better about my health each day when Uncle Sam gives me my rectal exam.

I havn't reached the tingle down my leg level of Chris Mathews yet (Obama be praised, peace be upon him) but I think I'm getting there and when I know I do I won't be plagued by guilt feelings for not being politically correct which I have come to realize is detrimental to my health.

I know when Obamacare is finally brought into being and after a few years of tweaking with more democrat amendments (jackasses be praised, peace be upon them) Uncle Sam and I will be complerely in line with UN philosophy as administered by WHO.

WHO wrote the book of love, I know that when all the WHO initiaves are put in place I won't be able to aquire and consume substances such as tobacco, corn liquer and dairy products which are harmful to my body.

Oh, wait, I overlooked your stipulation about being rational.

Thanks for bringing the topic up though comrade, but let me point out your lack of political correctness when you inserted the rational clause.

Basics of the ten commandments of PCism.

1. Never mention facts or logic when discussing anthing of a political nature.

2. Everything is of political nature, some things are just more political than others.

3. The only natural science is political science.

4. It is only natural that owning all the gold could never be enough if CO2 is an unowned commodity, this is a scientific fact.

Finger_Obamacare_Pacman.gif
 
#38
#38
BigPapaVol said:
It's patently absurd to say free markets can't find a solution for healthcare or insurance.
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Not at all. I'll prove it to you (not that I think you'll really read through it).

Take a world of perfect free markets. I own an insurance company, my goal is to make a profit. I sell insurance to a pool of people who are randomly distributed, some are sick and some are healthy. I can't tell in advance which people are which.

Ideally, I would set the price for my insurance by using the percentage of people I estimate will get sick. This is an efficient outcome and results in the "fair" insurance price. Unfortunately, I know that sick people are also more willing to purchase insurance, so I adjust my expectation slightly in that direction. The solution that actually arises, in a pure free market economy, is that only sick people are willing to purchase high-priced insurance and insurers are unwilling to cover them.


Anyone with a background in economics (or maybe game theory) can confirm the story I just told for you.


I agree that this is a very simplified set of assumptions, but it is the same set of simplified assumptions the pro-"completely unregulated" crowd works with in their arguments.




Markets work great the majority of the time. However, there are plenty of special cases where markets fail. Insurance markets tend to be one of them.
 
#40
#40
OrangeEmpire said:
You can't help people who have no desire to be helped.
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Greeting comrade.

Your statement is not only not politically correct, it isn't factually correct either.

Adolph, Uncle Joe and Chairman Mao to name a few, have helped out millions who had no desire to be helped.

Many millions more who don't want help are being helped out on a daily basis.

You need to report to the nearest reeducation camp.

Ask if they have a elective fashion class first thing.

Your outfit is not complete without a Che t-shirt.
 
#42
#42
gsvol said:
I know I will feel better about my health each day when Uncle Sam gives me my rectal exam.
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I demand to know who you are bribing that has enabled you to escape said exam until now!!!

I know I feel screwed, er, "rectally examined" twice a month when I look at my pay check. :eek:hmy:
 
#43
#43
shootermcgavin7 said:
Take a world of perfect free markets. I own an insurance company, my goal is to make a profit. I sell insurance to a pool of people who are randomly distributed, some are sick and some are healthy. I can't tell in advance which people are which.

Ideally, I would set the price for my insurance by using the percentage of people I estimate will get sick. This is an efficient outcome and results in the "fair" insurance price. Unfortunately, I know that sick people are also more willing to purchase insurance, so I adjust my expectation slightly in that direction. The solution that actually arises, in a pure free market economy, is that only sick people are willing to purchase high-priced insurance and insurers are unwilling to cover them.
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Allow me to illustrate the real free market.

I own insurance company B. I crunch the numbers and realize that you, insurance company A, are overcharging your customers. Being the astute entrepreneur that I am, I determine that I can undersell you by pricing my coverage just slightly under yours, and still make a handsome profit, so I do. Word gets out and folks start to flock to my insurance company. You are forced to either adjust your pricing to compete with me, or hope that you can hold on to a few of your customers by convincing them that somehow, you can offer them "better service" when they file a claim. Along comes insurance company C and they decide to under price my company for a period of time to establish themselves in the industry and claim their piece of the business. And so on, and so on....

That is what is meant by free market competition.

Free markets trying to compete against a government that demonizes them to facilitate their power grab, and whose only limitation for resources is their diminutive sense of benevolence toward their subjects, will lose every time. Please refer to history for plenty of examples.
 
#44
#44
J-P said:
Allow me to illustrate the real free market.

I own insurance company B. I crunch the numbers and realize that you, insurance company A, are overcharging your customers. Being the astute entrepreneur that I am, I determine that I can undersell you by pricing my coverage just slightly under yours, and still make a handsome profit, so I do. Word gets out and folks start to flock to my insurance company. You are forced to either adjust your pricing to compete with me, or hope that you can hold on to a few of your customers by convincing them that somehow, you can offer them "better service" when they file a claim. Along comes insurance company C and they decide to under price my company for a period of time to establish themselves in the industry and claim their piece of the business. And so on, and so on....

That is what is meant by free market competition.

Free markets trying to compete against a government that demonizes them to facilitate their power grab, and whose only limitation for resources is their diminutive sense of benevolence toward their subjects, will lose every time. Please refer to history for plenty of examples.
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I still contend none of this works as long as somebody can walk into an ER, get care, and leave. Unless we start throwing people outside and refusing care no matter what, all of this free market stuff is academic.

And something tells me we will never get to the point where when somebody shows up at the ER bleeding to death we sit there and watch the spectacle because they were to cheap or stupid enough to buy insurance.
 
#45
#45
No, but they can sure work out a payment plan and make the person and his heirs responsible for payment of the aid rendered. That's how it worked in the old days.

The last thing we need is another government black hole sucking in everything we work our butts off for.
 
#46
#46
J-P said:
No, but they can sure work out a payment plan and make the person and his heirs responsible for payment of the aid rendered. That's how it worked in the old days.

The last thing we need is another government black hole sucking in everything we work our butts off for.
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I understand the sentiment, and I agree, but you can only get so much out of an empty jar. If people don't have the money, they don't have it. If somebody is indigent and needs a $200,000 heart bypass, they either get government help (medicaid, medicare) or they go on a 50 year payment plan which they will never pay anyway.

...or just let them die.

At the very least, some sort of government regulation is needed here. A true free market system would never work, again, unless we just start letting people die and let Darwin works itself out.
 
#47
#47
I posted earlier what I like about the Health Bill, so now I will post what I do not like.

Mandated coverage covering businesses and individuals.

$800 Billion of subsidies to people who can't afford the high cost of insurance coverage, but have to have it because of the mandate.

The promise of a reduced deficit (I'm an optimist, but come on).

Higher taxes in times of economic crisis.

Here's the big part, NO public option. I will explain this if you want me to.

No tort reform (that I know of).

The bill should have just tried to find a way to cut costs and regulate the insurance industry instead of the "comprehensive" approach that was taken.
 
#49
#49
jackaro said:
I support the bill and am actually grateful to have this opportunity. First let my classify myself politically because it is so relevant. I am very Liberal in all things not related to gun rights and state rights.

The bill sets up exchanges, that regulate the insurance industry. If ever there was an industry that needs to be regulated it is the insurance industry. All the control you seem to feel we are giving to the government on health care, is not being given to the government. The existing insurance system will stay in tact, just be regulated (such a good thing).

All the arguments about the government controlling what doctor you can go to, what treatments will be paid for, and how the government will control peoples lives is wrong. Insurance companies do this now and have been for a long time, but since there is no public option the government will have absolutely no hand in this.

So many abuses by the insurance companies have ruined peoples lives, that is why the insurance companies need to be regulated. I have so much more to say, but this got long, so I will wait for a few more posters, respond to them, and finish what I like about the bill later.

Thank you for starting this thread, I hope to debate many of you and look forward to it.
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The idea of fixing an everyday problem is cool. Expecting the government to fix is not. I have a hard time putting my trust, and my money toward anything of the such.

If the government can "regulate" it, they have "control" over it. Thats not hard to realize.

All in all, our government would have a hard time regulating a bowel movement.
 
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