Does anybody actually support ObamaCare?

#51
#51
Has there been enough information released yet to form a strong opinion yet? Other then the knee-jerk democrat/republican rhetoric? From what I've read, the bill is massive and is basicly an exstension of blue cross/blue shield.

What people want from this bill, is some method of controlling/reducing costs. That is really the biggest criticism of U.S. healthcare. Many people can't afford it. Unfortunately I think this bill will be incredibly disappointing in that respect.
 
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#52
#52
But who's going to be left for the rich people to take advantage of? :unsure:

the producers (you call them rich people) will never run out of healthy, poor people to take advantage of. What's the fun in abusing a guy with a bad ticker?

but seriously, if someone has to get the surgery you described why would they not expect to pay for it? And if their lifestyle choices were shown to be a direct contributor to their illness why do I have to co-sign?
 
#54
#54
Has there been enough information released yet to form a strong opinion yet? Other then the knee-jerk democrat/republican rhetoric? From what I've read, the bill is massive and is basicly an extension of blue cross/blue shield.

What people want from this bill, is some method of controlling/reducing costs. That is really the biggest criticism of U.S. healthcare. Many people can't afford it. Unfortunately I think this bill will be incredibly disappointing in that respect.

Thats a great point. Why is Obama in such a hurry to pass such an important bill (2000+ pages of it), when no body knows whats in it (at least some of it)?

Answer - He doesn't want everybody to know what is in it.

If healthcare is the issue he says it is, why not take the time to go over it, and make sure its right?

Answer - Thats not the reason for the bill.
 
#55
#55
but seriously, if someone has to get the surgery you described why would they not expect to pay for it? And if their lifestyle choices were shown to be a direct contributor to their illness why do I have to co-sign?

Some 70-year old man will sign up for the payment plan, and make his $100/month payment until he dies 2 years later. Of course I am making assumptions on this specific case, but it is indicitive of the system. With everything else in a free market system, you just go bankrupt at worst, but with healthcare it is often times life and death. It's why it will never work.

Philosophically I agree with you 100%. But it isn't reality.

Darwin is the only answer!
 
#57
#57
I understand the sentiment, and I agree, but you can only get so much out of an empty jar. If people don't have the money, they don't have it. If somebody is indigent and needs a $200,000 heart bypass, they either get government help (medicaid, medicare) or they go on a 50 year payment plan which they will never pay anyway.

...or just let them die.

At the very least, some sort of government regulation is needed here. A true free market system would never work, again, unless we just start letting people die and let Darwin works itself out.

That is where local, personal charity comes in. Not some giant, impersonal government agency or charity that skims 50% or more off the top for "administering" the "contributions", but folks in the community who care for the person in need and are able and willing to give a hand up. Again, I believe that is how it used to work.

The less the government has control of and has to do, the better. Some government is necessary, but I am beginning to understand how the government in Nazi Germany were able to pull off what they got a way with. The citizenry ceded more and more power to them, until they reached a point where they could not be stopped. I trust government less than I trust a habitual burglar. Does it show?
 
#60
#60
That is where local, personal charity comes in. Not some giant, impersonal government agency or charity that skims 50% or more off the top for "administering" the "contributions", but folks in the community who care for the person in need and are able and willing to give a hand up. Again, I believe that is how it used to work.

I agree with this completely. Ron Paul made a point similar to this when he was running for the Republican nomination. There should be more non-profit clinics and hospitals supported by charitable contributions. Taxes are necessary, but private contributions are infinitely preferable to a mandated tax.
 
#61
#61
Support it or not (I don't), I don't see how you can see it will work out. The government can't even run the Postal Service without it going bankrupt, how do you expect it to run our healthcare??
 
#62
#62
If the Imperial Federal Government weren't stifling our economy, our energy plan and our personal fortunes, we could afford to make more private contributions.
 
#64
#64
Allow me to illustrate the real free market.

I own insurance company B. I crunch the numbers and realize that you, insurance company A, are overcharging your customers.

That's the entire point of my example. They AREN'T overcharging their customers at all. In my example, everyone operates at their expected marginal costs. Everyone is price-setting under uncertainty.



If you lower your price (running Insurance Company B), you end up losing money. That's why it is a market failure.


I can plug in numbers to give a numeral demonstration if you are confused. I'd also enjoy your definition of "real free market".
 
#65
#65
Okay, you caught me, I was baiting you a bit. How about, in a market where the government doesn't fix winners and losers using the tax code.
 
#66
#66
I do not recall bringing the "eviiiiiiiiiiiiiil government" into my conversation at all. I was simply pointing out an example of market failure.

Well excuse the hell right out of me, didn't mean to step on your socialist talking point.

I thought the discussion was about being at a fork in the road and the question was whether free market principles should prevail or should we choose to have the government run things.

To me there is no fork in the road to continued and improved prosperity and freedom, obamacare is merely an off ramp.

So fork obamacare.
 
#67
#67
Okay, you caught me, I was baiting you a bit. How about, in a market where the government doesn't fix winners and losers using the tax code.




Perfect markets, by definition, don't have taxes :)

So neither did my example. Taxes are an aside for now, they relate to a more specific question; the point of my original post was more general. It was to show that health insurance markets are special-made for failure if they are left completely alone.

I wasn't saying anything about the current proposed healthcare plan, just that the debate should at least be looked at in the proper frame (that markets cannot do it on their own).
Starting from the default position that the market is most efficient (which is usually true) is usually not true in the case of health insurance markets.



Finally:
Your point on the tax code about allocating winners/losers may be true at the individual level (I honestly don't know the answer to that); but I think there's empirical evidence that marginal shifts in tax policy at the corporate level or macroeconomic level don't really make a big difference.
So if you're referring to the individual tax code, you may be right, I don't know the answer.
 
#68
#68
Well excuse the hell right out of me, didn't mean to step on your socialist talking point.

My example was straight out of free-market neoclassical microeconomics.

Kindly explain to me what is "socialist" about that?


My discussion was to set a general frame on how markets actually work so that people could have an intelligent discussion, not to call people communists or nazis.
 
#70
#70
Mandating and enforcing are two different things. At some point the cause of liberty will require a martyr or two. Any volunteers? :whistling:
 
#72
#72
My example was straight out of free-market neoclassical microeconomics.

Kindly explain to me what is "socialist" about that?


My discussion was to set a general frame on how markets actually work so that people could have an intelligent discussion, not to call people communists or nazis.

Thus illustrating my assertion about 're'-education.

The title 'neoclassical microeconomics' should give you a clue, who is it's author?

Government control of business is fashism.

Government ownership of business is communism.

Both fashism and communism are socialist systems.

Free-market is when supply and demand dictate how free and independent people regulate their own prices in their own businesses dependent upon the how stiff the competition is and those free and independent citizens have a choice of which company to deal with or even the choice of not participating.

Your framework for intelligent discussion seens oddly reminiscent of the 'red framing square' the media uses to frame political discussion in election years, even though you may think not, which is good for you since you probably won't have to go to a reeducation camp! :)

Would love to continue this discussion but I'll have to drop it for now as I'm about to go out for a family Christmas dinner, til later. :salute:

GO VOLS!!
 
#73
#73
Free-market is when supply and demand dictate how free and independent people regulate their own prices in their own businesses dependent upon the how stiff the competition is and those free and independent citizens have a choice of which company to deal with or even the choice of not participating.

Which are the conditions I assumed when I showed you insurance markets can have market failure (by the way, you just described the tenets underpinning neoclassical econ, which makes me wonder how little econ background you have).


Free markets CAN lead to market failure, especially in quirky situations (like insurance markets) where there is incomplete information or adverse selection.


If I can explain it to you any other way, I'd be happy to try. My guess, however, is that you started from a conclusion you wanted to reach, and worked backwards to find justification for it. Additionally, you seem to have difficulty staying on-topic; instead of calling people communists, you would be more interesting if you would demonstrate a logical flaw in the market failure example I gave.

Enjoy your christmas dinner.
 
#74
#74
Well excuse the hell right out of me, didn't mean to step on your socialist talking point.

BTW, It takes a real winner to take my example using perfectly competitive markets and call it a "socialist talking point".


Yet you're the one throwing around the "re-education" term? Incredibly ironic. And sad.
 
#75
#75
Not at all. I'll prove it to you (not that I think you'll really read through it).

Take a world of perfect free markets. I own an insurance company, my goal is to make a profit. I sell insurance to a pool of people who are randomly distributed, some are sick and some are healthy. I can't tell in advance which people are which.

Ideally, I would set the price for my insurance by using the percentage of people I estimate will get sick. This is an efficient outcome and results in the "fair" insurance price. Unfortunately, I know that sick people are also more willing to purchase insurance, so I adjust my expectation slightly in that direction. The solution that actually arises, in a pure free market economy, is that only sick people are willing to purchase high-priced insurance and insurers are unwilling to cover them.


Anyone with a background in economics (or maybe game theory) can confirm the story I just told for you.


I agree that this is a very simplified set of assumptions, but it is the same set of simplified assumptions the pro-"completely unregulated" crowd works with in their arguments.




Markets work great the majority of the time. However, there are plenty of special cases where markets fail. Insurance markets tend to be one of them.

I doubt many people with a background in economics are going to argue that adverse selection is not inherently present in insurance markets. Where I take issue with your stance is the assumption that government regulations, most notably, those within the current Senate bill are going to counterbalance those concerns.

Now, let me preface the following by stating that I am no economist, just an educated adult who is financially conservative with an interest in economic thought. That being said, in its most simplistic form, the negatives from adverse selection merely reflect the inability of the market to properly price a particular good because it cannot properly set rates that reflect risk. Unfortunately, outside of mandating insurance coverage (such as is the case in auto insurance), government intervention has rarely proven that it can do much to combat adverse selection.

In fact government regulation often perpetuates adverse selection by restricting the ability of insurance companies to make rates more closely representing an individuals risk (e.g., state regulations on community ratings and guaranteed issue). Typically, “guaranteed issue” provisions promote adverse selection concerns by giving individuals the ability as well as the incentive to delay purchasing insurance until they have health care needs. Similarly, pure community rating and adjusted community rating rules can raise the premiums for younger and healthier individuals relative to what they would pay if age and health status could be used as rating factors.

So, moving on to the Senate bill that was passed the other day, I do not think the entire bill is bad. It is certainly an attempt to step in the right direction to remedy these innefficiencies. Specifically, I have no problem with the economics behind the individual mandate. In fact, I believe that is one of the only ways to combat the problem with adverse selection. By requiring all individuals in an insurance pool to purchase insurance, insurers no longer have to adjust rates upward on the basis that most of their customers would tend to be higher risk individuals. I do, however, question the constitutionality of taxing people for not purchasing a good from the market. Regardless of how well the economics of a bill may hold up, legislatures must be mindful of the Constitution. I have not researched this issue enough to have an opinion of its constitutionality.

On the other hand, there are many portions of the bill that make little economic sense. First, taxing high cost health plans make little economic sense (although I understand that these guys are fighting for any means in which to pay for the plan). Second, I find little reasoning to require all employers offer approved healthcare coverage. If the individual mandate is supposed to lower costs by allowing insurer the ability to better estimate risk and the insurance exchange is supposed to take advantage of administrative efficiency and competition, what is the point of requiring employers provide health coverage? Third, the expansion of Medicaid to 133% of the federal poverty line will only exacerbate high premiums as care for more patients will be paid at below market rates – rates which must be absorbed by the market in the form of higher costs all around. Fourth, it goes without saying that the moral hazard associated with requiring everyone to purchase insurance (i.e., many will have incentive to “get their money’s worth” by getting checked out more than they normally would) will put a strain on our current healthcare providers as well as increase the costs of providing medical insurance (which in turn is recovered through higher premiums). Finally, because the problems of adverse selection to low risk individuals results primarily from insurers inability to properly set rates reflecting risks, the bill’s limitations on rates that can be charged for certain high risk individuals will be absorbed by the remaining insureds through increased premium costs. [I won’t even mention the problems I have with the payoffs for votes – such as Nebraska’s federal Medicaid subsidy.

All in all, although I understand the inherent problems of insurance markets, I do not believe this bill is sufficient to counterbalance those concerns. The problems with this bill are simply too great for me to support it.
 
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