Edward Snowden: American Hero

I concur.

Another option for the Chinese might be their requiring a limited amount of information in exchange for his leaving to some other country. That way, China could get dirt on the U.S. without holding the hot potato. Granting him exile might create problems in Sino-American relations which the Chinese do not want. If he went to a place where he could continue the exposure of domestic espionage, that might serve China's interests. I also think it is possible for the Chinese to decide returning him to the U.S. is in their best interests. It is also possible that he is so high value that they decide to keep him.
 
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I still think your analogy is wide of the mark. There are a vast number of functional disanalogies between living under a government and being a customer of a bank. For example, I can choose to take part in the bank, and thus choose to be subject to their rules. If there exists no bank with which I am satisfied, I can keep my money. I cannot do so with government.

The vast majority of individuals do not choose (so long as we are speaking of genuine choice), either explicitly or tacitly, the government with which they live under; and, further, the vast majority of individuals do not possess the ability to simply say, "Well, there exist no governments with which I am satisfied, so I will just live according to my own law", thus declaring they are no longer subject to the laws of any governments. For, if most individuals make this proclamation, the government which claims possession of the territory in which they reside, will ignore said proclamation and still impose their laws on said individual. Banks lack this might.



Your analogy still fails to hold. This time, it fails on the notion of cooperation. In a bank, I both choose the bank and, in doing so, choose whether or not to cooperate with thieves. Further, a bank possesses my money. Money of which I have the power to do what I want. If I want to lock it away from others, I can cooperate with whomever I so please to lock it away, spend it, burn it, etc.. A government does not possess my liberty. Unlike money, in which I transfer to a bank and say, "Hold on to this and, based solely on trust, let me have some of it when I want it", I do not turn to the government and say, "Here is my liberty, enslave me, and let me be free when I want to". In fact, the latter sentence does not make coherent sense. If taking my liberty is up to me and I have the discretion to take it when I want, then I cannot transfer it to the government (I cannot transfer it to anyone, if that is the case). If taking my liberty is not up to me and I do not have the discretion, then I actually do not have liberty. I can no more say, "Here, hold on to my liberty", then I can say, "Hey, you can enslave me unless I don't like it, in which case I'll leave". To say such things is just senseless word-play. If liberty is a real concept (and maybe it is not), then liberty and government are disanalogous to money and banks.



Of course he is right, and this plays off the point I made above. Once individuals have surrendered their liberty, they have become slaves in some form or fashion. Being a slave means, as explained above, that one is not at the discretion to simply tell their master that they no longer enjoy being a slave and so will no longer be a slave. If that is the case, then they have not given up any liberties to begin with. So, the liberties are surrendered, the people are enslaved, and it takes superior might, not simply a request, to overcome the master and thus escape the bondage of slavery.

Further, if it takes superior might to overcome the master, then what is implied is the master has more might than the slave. If the master has more might than the slave, then what stops the master from taking more liberties from the slave? Certainly not a request from the slave not to take their liberties; certainly not even a demand. Superior might is all that can be called upon to reverse the situation.

When the master is the state and the slaves are the citizens, and the master has at least more might than the individual citizen, then how does the citizen gain superior might? It might be through numbers (divide and conquer v. unite and overcome). But, if you have a program in which the master has also invaded the privacy of communications of the slaves, then how are these slaves ever to unite and overcome? On top of that, the master has superior weaponry and is working to take away all weaponry from the slaves. Further, the master can, based on nothing more than suspicion, remove the slave from the community of his/her comrades and detain said slave in isolation indefinitely.

The only way to avoid this is to have individuals that represent the interests of the citizens running the government. Since information and knowledge work with desire to produce interest, the government cannot hide information and knowledge from the citizen and still proclaim to represent the interest of the citizen. The interest of the individual citizen, therefore, must be replaced by some theory of the common good or interest of the whole, in which generality replaces particularity. But, if that is the case, then decisions are being made not based on representation of the interests of actual citizens; they are being made based on representation of some theoretically general "common good". What does "representative government" mean in such context though? Why not simply have a dictator, since what is happening is that the theory is telling the citizens what is good for them anyway? Again, just make the citizens slaves "for their own good".

I get all that and agree. The issue was whether the government of the people and for the people can rightly keep secrets. I believe it can and is proper that it does.
 
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I get all that and agree. The issue was whether the government of the people and for the people can rightly keep secrets. I believe it can and is proper that it does.

The bolded is where the problem lies. The government is no longer "of the people" and it is surely no longer "for the people".

The government now; is of the government for the government.
 
I get all that and agree. The issue was whether the government of the people and for the people can rightly keep secrets. I believe it can and is proper that it does.

I think it is possible for a government for the people but not a government by the people. I think a contradiction lies in saying a government can be both by the people and keep secrets from the people. The contradiction does not exist if for the people. But, even tyrants claim they are ruling for the people.
 
There are powerful people who want so badly for this story to go away, but it won't.
 
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Negative. Plausibility involves probability and there is a zero percent chance of knowing anything about the future, since the future has no truth-value. So, both are equally not plausible.

By the way, I am not 65. I'm in my 30s.

Does plausible not also have the definition of reasonable /believable? Also is using Bayesian priors to predict probability completely useless? It seems to me that using priors to determine the plausibility of a future outcome is not unreasonable. Probability does not equal inevitability of course (thus not knowing but predicting based on priors).

In this case, the prior might be current understanding, human psychology, and historical factors - but I think these could be used to determine if a future outcome is plausible (given the definition of reasonable OR probable).
 
Does plausible not also have the definition of reasonable /believable? Also is using Bayesian priors to predict probability completely useless? It seems to me that using priors to determine the plausibility of a future outcome is not unreasonable. Probability does not equal inevitability of course (thus not knowing but predicting based on priors).

In this case, the prior might be current understanding, human psychology, and historical factors - but I think these could be used to determine if a future outcome is plausible (given the definition of reasonable OR probable).

Sorry, I should have made explicit exactly what I was attacking. I was attacking the specific part of the hypothetical in which it was both stated that one would know the future results and that this was a "real world possibility" not merely a logical possibility.

There is no plausibility in knowing the truth value of the future. E.g., I can say that it is plausible that the sun will come up tomorrow (in fact, I believe the sun will come up tomorrow); I cannot say that it is plausible that I know that the sun will come up tomorrow (while yet, I can state it as a logical possibility that one would know that the sun would come up tomorrow).

In the same vein, one can say the following: it is possible and plausible that North Korea will invade; it is possible and plausible that North Korea will conquer the US; it is possible and plausible that the US will turn into another North Korea; and, it is possible, yet not plausible, that one would know that resistance was futile.

In no way was my response intended to invalidate speculation, counterfactuals, conditionals, and/or possibilities. It is just saying that one cannot discount a hypothetical because it is not plausible (or, a "real world possibility", like "common sense" usually just a broad brush to avoid intellectual engagement), and then insist that a hypothetical in which one of the conditions is that one knows the truth-value of the future is plausible.
 
Not absurd in the least.

1. The State of Nature is a fiction.

2. The Hobbesian State of Nature is theoretically flawed.

So, what "State of Nature" theory are you suggesting?

We are gonna have to agree to disagree. I guess the state of nature for you is kumbaya.

Plenty of social contract theorists, to include Rawls by the way, have absolutely abandoned the state of nature and society for security theses. Instead, building off of Hume's notions of sympathy and empathy (along with modern psychology), these theorists posit that societies are not about securing life but are about providing mutual benefits through division of labor, beneficence, love, etc. Many argue that the threats to life, throughout recorded history, withing society are only ever marginally less than in wars during the same periods. Thus, societies were not offering any great protection for life. What they were offering was something else. This something else is what the Founders of the US actually keyed into, thanks to the help of Locke, Hume, etc.: liberty, pursuit of happiness, not mere security (in fact, trading liberty for security seemed abhorrent to said founders, as it does to me).

Feel free to offer you social contract theory, though (as I've oft requested). Until then, I can only speak to those social contract theories that I know, Rawls being the most theoretically sound of all. Or, you can say that you simply believe in a barebones social contract theory in which it is what is explicitly agreed to; but, then, the US social contract would be the DoI and the Constitution, and what those men said and wrote at the time. Neither of these (Rawls or US contract) support your view that security of life is more important than liberty.

There is certainly something to say about that angle. I have not said that humans would interact with others exclusively out of the hope to minimize the potential harm done unto them. However, the reasons listed above does not require government.
 
Why is it short-sighted?

Faulty premises.

Well, you cannot protect choice and autonomy while infringing on choice and autonomy of the individuals' choice and autonomy you are protecting.

Government is built on the premise of giving up a level of autonomy. Thus, acting like having some level of autonomy/choice infringement being unnecessary to provide protection is ridiculous.

If you want supreme/complete autonomy and freedom of choice, go back to the state of nature.

And, I've offered an argument for those that do not see life as infinitely valuable.

Must have missed it. Your other argument was laughable.
 
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The more information that comes out leads me to believe Whistle blower is the wrong term to describe Snowdens actions. I now believe the correct term to describe him is traitor.

Definition of 'Whistleblower'
Anyone who has and reports insider knowledge of illegal activities occurring in an organization. Whistleblowers can be employees, suppliers, contractors, clients or any individual who somehow becomes aware of illegal activities taking place in a business either through witnessing the behavior or being told about it.

We may or may not agree with the NSA actions but they were done legally with congressional oversite and regular court reviews. Snowden ran to a foreign country and spilled government secrets. That is a traitor. He did not have to he run to a foreign country. There are channels in the USA he could have went through.
 
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The more information that comes out leads me to believe Whistle blower is the wrong term to describe Snowdens actions. I now believe the correct term to describe him is traitor.

Definition of 'Whistleblower'
Anyone who has and reports insider knowledge of illegal activities occurring in an organization. Whistleblowers can be employees, suppliers, contractors, clients or any individual who somehow becomes aware of illegal activities taking place in a business either through witnessing the behavior or being told about it.

We may or may not agree with the NSA actions but they were done legally with congressional oversite and regular court reviews. Snowden ran to a foreign country and spilled government secrets. That is a traitor. He did not have to he run to a foreign country. There are channels in the USA he could have went through.

You are being a tad dramatic about this.
 
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We may or may not agree with the NSA actions but they were done legally with congressional oversite and regular court reviews. Snowden ran to a foreign country and spilled government secrets. That is a traitor. He did not have to he run to a foreign country. There are channels in the USA he could have went through.

no, what we are being told about by the govt officials was done "legally". Even that is only true because of policy and nothing more. There is a slight difference in their stories and that needs to be ironed out before deciding how to label Snowden
 
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no, what we are being told about by the govt officials was done "legally". Even that is only true because of policy and nothing more. There is a slight difference in their stories and that needs to be ironed out before deciding how to label Snowden

I agree with Dick Cheney and others on Snowden.
 
no, what we are being told about by the govt officials was done "legally". Even that is only true because of policy and nothing more. There is a slight difference in their stories and that needs to be ironed out before deciding how to label Snowden

Who knows what is legal in domestic espionage these days? I personally believe that there is way more of it going on than we are told. Without jumping on the "Snowden is a traitor" bandwagon, I do not think the man is a whistle blower. He did not take his information to some Inspector General or to the Congress; he fled the country to Hong Kong. He over cooked his own goose, and it cannot be salvaged. It remains to be seen what information he will release, how the press will manage it, and what the American people will think about it.
 
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