Edward Snowden: American Hero

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#426
#427
#427
Also, my biggest issue with this whole thing is we're all focused on Snowden and what he is.

Snowden doesn't matter, in the end. What matters is what's been revealed. Everyone's too busy attacking or defending Snowden (myself included) and not looking at what he brought out, which is undeniably true. We need to talk about how to take care of the violation of our privacy, and not tow the government line and try to discredit and defame this "hacker".
 
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#428
#428
rockytop9808 said:
Also, my biggest issue with this whole thing is we're all focused on Snowden and what he is.

Snowden doesn't matter, in the end. What matters is what's been revealed. Everyone's too busy attacking or defending Snowden (myself included) and not looking at what he brought out, which is undeniably true. We need to talk about how to take care of the violation of our privacy, and not tow the government line and try to discredit and defame this "hacker".
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I had this same conversation with someone the other night. I don't condone his actions - I'm pretty ambivalent about him and to the extent he violated the law he should be punished.

I am however, glad he brought this to light and to discussion. He is just a footnote in the discussion.
 
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#429
rockytop9808 said:
Snowden doesn't matter, in the end. What matters is what's been revealed.
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No... no, no, no. Snowden's traitorous behavior absolutely does matter. It's actually quite important regardless of what stance you take on the information he leaked, for reasons varying depending on said stance.
 
#430
#430
"@WASPgrlproblems: People think it is a scandal that an intelligence agency collects intelligence. #WASPGirlProblems"

Raises a good point.
 
#431
#431
notabed22 said:
"@WASPgrlproblems: People think it is a scandal that an intelligence agency collects intelligence. #WASPGirlProblems"

Raises a good point.
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I don't think the scandal is collecting the intelligence itself, it is the methodology.
 
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#434
Vol Main said:
The title of this thread gives me pause. Wouldn't a hero be someone who stayed in his country and fought the right fight, instead of running away and potentially doing great harm to his country?
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Keep in mind he took computers with him....and he went to all places.....China and Russia. It's one thing to tell the American public they are being spied on and another to run to Russia and China blabbing everything he knows. I think there is a horrible ending in his near future.
 
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#435
Carl Pickens said:
Keep in mind he took computers with him....and he went to all places.....China and Russia. It's one thing to tell the American public they are being spied on and another to run to Russia and China blabbing everything he knows. I think there is a horrible ending in his near future.
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Exactly. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things... Snowden chose the wrong way.
 
#436
#436
I don't think people realize the sacrifice Snoweden made. He's got to look over his shoulder the rest of his life. If he did this for personal gain, why didn't he sell the information? He is a true patriot. “The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Paine

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#437
#437
If he only uncovered what was illegal (allegedly and not conclusively proven) against American citizens he would have been fine in the case of public opinion but not under law. But what he has done is release information against our operations outside the US. This is well beyond what is done against Americans under Constitutional issues. We've passed that point and dealing with info that harms our intel gathering abilities elsewhere.

If you are about rule of law, he had means of carrying this out using whistleblower protections. If it were purely about rights of Americans being violated he could have just leaked all of this to Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, or some other elected official who could have run with this still within legal means. But now what he has done is gone beyond a legal path and is really no different in breaking the law than those he accuses. Rule of law is rule of law.

The fact he has gone to China and Russia negates his whole freedom and free speech rant. He has traveled to regimes that are everything against what he claims he is for. These two nations are geopolitical enemies no matter how you sugarcoat it. The fact he has dropped Cuba, Venezuela, and Ecuador also bring question to his whole notion about liberties, free speech, etc.

Because he did not bring this through legal means and stayed in country all this does is make this a PR nightmare and cause a few hearings which change nothing. If anything, it drives this type of operation further into the shadows. Contractors are now screened more. Oversight dwindles. The human element begins to be removed because trust is questioned with who handles all of this.

So based on what he did and how he did it, I would drop him into the traitor column and even go as far to call him an idiot as well. Cost benefit, all he did was cause a PR black eye, drive this effort further underground, and now provided information to our enemies as to how we collect and analyze intel - especially the legal means (which is ignored in all of this that legal methods are now known).
 
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#439
#439
CSpindizzy said:
If he only uncovered what was illegal (allegedly and not conclusively proven) against American citizens he would have been fine in the case of public opinion but not under law. But what he has done is release information against our operations outside the US. This is well beyond what is done against Americans under Constitutional issues. We've passed that point and dealing with info that harms our intel gathering abilities elsewhere.

If you are about rule of law, he had means of carrying this out using whistleblower protections. If it were purely about rights of Americans being violated he could have just leaked all of this to Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, or some other elected official who could have run with this still within legal means. But now what he has done is gone beyond a legal path and is really no different in breaking the law than those he accuses. Rule of law is rule of law.

The fact he has gone to China and Russia negates his whole freedom and free speech rant. He has traveled to regimes that are everything against what he claims he is for. These two nations are geopolitical enemies no matter how you sugarcoat it. The fact he has dropped Cuba, Venezuela, and Ecuador also bring question to his whole notion about liberties, free speech, etc.

Because he did not bring this through legal means and stayed in country all this does is make this a PR nightmare and cause a few hearings which change nothing. If anything, it drives this type of operation further into the shadows. Contractors are now screened more. Oversight dwindles. The human element begins to be removed because trust is questioned with who handles all of this.

So based on what he did and how he did it, I would drop him into the traitor column and even go as far to call him an idiot as well. Cost benefit, all he did was cause a PR black eye, drive this effort further underground, and now provided information to our enemies as to how we collect and analyze intel - especially the legal means (which is ignored in all of this that legal methods are now known).
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Bring it up through "legal means"? Do you even pay attention to what you type?

There have been others who have tried to go through Congressmen. Hell, there was one who said he received these kinds of things every week. Had we heard about those before?

He brought a program that ****s all over American liberty to light. He's shown that our government is corrupt, out of control, and needlessly aggressive in dealing with other countries.

Targeting the man and calling him a traitor is stupid. Address the real damn issue.
 
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#440
rockytop9808 said:
Bring it up through "legal means"? Do you even pay attention to what you type?

There have been others who have tried to go through Congressmen. Hell, there was one who said he received these kinds of things every week. Had we heard about those before?

He brought a program that ****s all over American liberty to light. He's shown that our government is corrupt, out of control, and needlessly aggressive in dealing with other countries.

Targeting the man and calling him a traitor is stupid. Address the real damn issue.
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Um, yes. I pay a lot of attention to what I type. Are you telling me that people have repeatedly brought something of this magnitude to high profile members of Congress who are very outspoken on matters like this?

What exact liberty? What exact law? Because if a system set up that has been approved and with oversight from all three branches of government is violating all aspects of not only law and the Constitution you better just give up and crawl under a rock. If you say all of this is illegal but yet all checks and balances built into the system with our elected officials from two branches as well as appointed from the third branch are approving this, our government is over. This system has been going on for years, and in many respects decades with all three branches complacent. If it is out of control you better just go ahead and start a revolution. But I would love to know exactly what laws were violated and what part of the Constitution was violated. To date, no prosecutions have taken place. Even those outspoken on this have yet to present formal charges.

As far as needlessly aggressive with other countries, how do you figure? Making sure we know who we are dealing with both friend and foe is needless? Making foreign policy decisions on blind ignorance is a better method?

The real issue is being addressed. If you cannot trust someone's pledge to not reveal information they are privy to then they are traitors. They broke the law. If they provide aid and comfort to enemies they are traitors. To date information WELL beyond what involves American rights and liberties has been revealed. The man's own words said that alone was his intent. And by his actions and who he has chosen to associate with proves he has lied in his intent. Nobility is not lying. Nobility is NOT giving information to enemy nations. Nobility is NOT giving enemies the advantage. This man has revealed legal means of intel gathering well beyond what was questioned as far as American citizens.

If you have an issue about your rights and privacy, I would suggest you take it up with the companies who are collecting this data constantly. You would actually be amazed by how much info and in what detail is compiled out there. Maybe you can address THAT issue as well.
 
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#444
#444
davethevol said:
They most likely are already aware of these types of things. Our allies spy on us too. This isn't groundbreaking news.
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No one is officially aware of it unless someone discloses it. Also, knowledge of how and when they are being collected on will allow them change their security protocols, making it more difficult in the future.
 
#445
#445
The US can spy on their allies as long as their allies don't know about it. It doesn't matter how it gets out. This is a failure by government.

I'd personally prefer they cut back on the cold war spying on both its citizens and its allies.
 
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#446
#446
One U.S. Senator stated that he opposed some of programs exposed by Snowden, but could not speak about them because they were classified. We really are dependent on the government to govern itself and the private contractors it hires. The President says that it is good to have a national discussion about this issue, but how can we?
 
#447
#447
I don't think I've ever seen anyone that was a bigger priss, prima donna, martyr complex, whiny tool than this guy. If you think you are so righteous, come back and tell it to the jury.
 
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#448
#448
If I were Barack Obama, I would absolutely send federal agents to JFK and have them board a flight departing for or returning from Moscow. And those federal agents would casually check the passengers' Passport and let everyone on board be on their merry way... except for those with Russian Passports.

YOUR MOVE, PUTIN.
 
#449
#449
Vol Main said:
One U.S. Senator stated that he opposed some of programs exposed by Snowden, but could not speak about them because they were classified. We really are dependent on the government to govern itself and the private contractors it hires. The President says that it is good to have a national discussion about this issue, but how can we?
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That is bogus because the Senate isn't held to the same non-disclosure laws as everyone else. They can absolutely speak out if they truly oppose a program. Additionally, the Senate has the responsibility to approve or disapprove these programs through funding and in some cases legislation. Even if he wasn't able to disclose the programs it does not negate that responsibility. Now, if he said that he was opposed but out voted, so therefore didn't feel he should speak out, that would be one thing. Saying he couldn't speak about his opposition is a cowards way out.
 
#450
#450
Government charges Snowden for spying for letting people know the government was spying on them.
 
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