Electric Vehicles

[StarRaider]

People have no idea how fast Teslas are.. they are insane, stupid fast. The plaid model...for $81k brand new...goes 0-60 in 2 seconds and quarter mile in 9secs and change. Thats as fast as the 1,000hp Lamborghini that just beat out Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Bentley etc for the 2025 Road n Track performance car of the year. The Lamborghini costs $740,000. The Tesla plaid is an $80k 4 door sedan that your wife can take the kids to school in and grocery shop. Just gotta turn the power down. Electric cars are like a cheat code for acceleration. I would love to have 1 to play with. This country is decades away from being able to charge them for everyone though.

 

[LouderVol]

Musk already has the largest charging network by miles. This won't hurt him, it will impact others significantly more.

I agree. I forget who I was arguing with, but Musk will have no issue removing preferential treatment for EVs.

He literally created the market before there was preferential treatment. he had an economically viable business model before anyone else even had a business model at all. the government's preferential treatment towards EVs is what made them make ~some~ financial sense to other companies to get into the game.

if the preferential treatment goes away a lot of Musks competition goes away, and he is back to being the only big operator.

 

[jwells]

Trump Cuts Off EV Charging Gravy Train Enjoyed by Elon Musk’s Tesla​

President Donald Trump’s recent executive order targeting electric vehicle charging infrastructure funding could have significant implications for Elon Musk’s Tesla, which has benefited from these programs in the past.

TechCrunch reports that in direct move against the EV industry, President Donald Trump has signed an executive order declaring that “All agencies shall immediately pause the disbursement of funds” from programs created by the Inflation Reduction Act and Bipartisan Infrastructure Law. The order specifically calls for a halt to funding for EV charging stations made available through the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) Formula Program and the Charging and Fueling Infrastructure (CFI) grant program.

Trump Cuts Off EV Charging Gravy Train Enjoyed by Elon Musk's Tesla

President Donald Trump's recent executive order targeting electric vehicle charging infrastructure funding could have significant implications for Elon Musk's Tesla, which has benefited from these programs in the past.

www.breitbart.com

This doesn't really seem fully within his scope. If funds are marked by Congress for specific programs....the funds go to those programs. Not sure this pause holds without a change from Congress.

 

[jwells]

She's a complete idiot who can barely repeat numbers prepared for her from a sheet of paper. She didn't prove anything (which you'd know if you watched before spamming)

Interesting. Just drove mine to work in 9*. 2.1mi/KWH with the heat, heated seats, and heated steering wheel on. Cost me .05/mi.
At 28mpg in my old car (MPG which I wouldn't get in this weather) it cost me about .09/mi. So...still dang near a 50% reduction in costs in frigid weather. In 50*+ It's like 3.7-4mi/kwh, or ~$.025/mi.
Norway, cold ass Norway, is crazy for electrics. Rented one and drove around in sub-32* for a week. Only downside? Charging is slower in the cold. Literally everything else is just fine.

 

[YankeeVol]

I saved $2500 last year. Charging at home is easier than going to the gas station, and there are no idiots smoking cigarettes around gasoline fumes in my garage. I've seen no significant change in my electric bill. We don't use my car for vacation travel, so I've only used a supercharger 3 times.

That being said: EV mandates are BS. They are not practical if you drive hundreds of miles a day or as a single family car that will be used for vacationing. They aren't ready for towing and the trucks are not practical. No way in hell 2/3 of cars are EV by 2032.

For me, the cost relative to speed/fun was the selling point. And it holds nearly 2 years in.

It cost's me roughly $50* ($45-$61 has been my range) a month for me to charge at home ('23 Bolt EUV). I have a ChargePoint charger, and only charge in off peak hours. I bought it last March and have just over 16,000 miles.

The furthest trip I've made without charging was for the UGA game. Mostly 65+ MPH and I got about 180 miles (it was LOW when I got home, as in maybe 5-6 miles until "empty"). It's rated for 243 miles.

*I would be paying roughly $262 in gas per month with my truck.

 

[InVOLuntary]

I saved $2500 last year. Charging at home is easier than going to the gas station, and there are no idiots smoking cigarettes around gasoline fumes in my garage. I've seen no significant change in my electric bill. We don't use my car for vacation travel, so I've only used a supercharger 3 times.

That being said: EV mandates are BS. They are not practical if you drive hundreds of miles a day or as a single family car that will be used for vacationing. They aren't ready for towing and the trucks are not practical. No way in hell 2/3 of cars are EV by 2032.

For me, the cost relative to speed/fun was the selling point. And it holds nearly 2 years in.

I saw a Tesla car towing a camper a few months ago in Atlanta.

 

[YankeeVol]

The mandate, as it were, would have had about 2/3 of cars in the US be EVs, by 2032. That's probably going to happen anyway.

I'll bet you any amount that won't happen.

 

[jwells]

Never should have been a mandate. This is why the left loses. Most Americans probably like the idea of an EV. It has to be left up to the consumer. My body, my choice. I choose to put my body in a manly SUV with big @$$ off road tires on it, but a I also wouldn't mind a cool Tesla to drive around town or short trips.

I keep hearing about this mandate...but have never seen the mandate. To my knowledge, no American was going to be required to buy an EV from the Federal level. States might do different, but I'm not sure this announcement did...anything? to the average consumer.

 

[jwells]

Low maintenance cost... until you have to replace your $40,000 battery. And try towing a camper or a boat with one. God forbid there's a small incline while towing. In towing or hauling scenarios, the range anxiety is very real.

Uh, my buddy pulls a giant horse trailer with his Lightning. You buy the tool for the job. Incline while towing? Range anxiety is getting 8mpg pulling a camper in a v8 Tundra.
The issues with electrics generally exist with ICE, as well. Again, just buy the tool for the job you have.

RE: Battery -- this is* a concern, but unless Trump just unwound it (haven't read all his EV changes), manufacturers have to do like 8 years, 100,000 miles on a battery. In that range, you'd also see engine failures that "total" the vehicle.

The key to this massive cost in battery replacement is for the market for secondary shops to increase. As more folks can manage the high voltage, prices will stabilize. It's not that the job is hard or the battery parts, themselves, that expensive vs engine rebuilds...it's labor. For a battery without issues, you'll see a loss in range, but not until well after 100,000mi....sorta like an old beat up engine loses HP and MPG over time. A well built battery should go for 200k, easy, without a crazy amount of degradation.

 

[LouderVol]

I keep hearing about this mandate...but have never seen the mandate. To my knowledge, no American was going to be required to buy an EV from the Federal level. States might do different, but I'm not sure this announcement did...anything? to the average consumer.

The EPA Wants Two Thirds of U.S. Car Sales to Be Electric by 2032

The Environmental Protection Agency has released draft regulations that set the stage for a huge transition to electric vehicles

www.scientificamerican.com

it was kinda the opposite. people weren't being required to buy 2/3 EVs. but car companies were being forced to sell 2/3 EVs by 2032.

 

[SamRebel35]

Uh, my buddy pulls a giant horse trailer with his Lightning. You buy the tool for the job. Incline while towing? Range anxiety is getting 8mpg pulling a camper in a v8 Tundra.
The issues with electrics generally exist with ICE, as well. Again, just buy the tool for the job you have.

RE: Battery -- this is* a concern, but unless Trump just unwound it (haven't read all his EV changes), manufacturers have to do like 8 years, 100,000 miles on a battery. In that range, you'd also see engine failures that "total" the vehicle.

The key to this massive cost in battery replacement is for the market for secondary shops to increase. As more folks can manage the high voltage, prices will stabilize. It's not that the job is hard or the battery parts, themselves, that expensive vs engine rebuilds...it's labor. For a battery without issues, you'll see a loss in range, but not until well after 100,000mi....sorta like an old beat up engine loses HP and MPG over time. A well built battery should go for 200k, easy, without a crazy amount of degradation.

Motor trend tested it. If you're towing a camper that maxes out the towing capacity (8,000 lbs), as tested, it gets less than 100 miles of range on a full charge. That's simply not manageable. The range improves less than linearly as the load gets lighter. So half the capacity only improves range up to about 115 miles. Those numbers are dismal compared to a diesel with a 30 gallon tank.

 

[hog88]

Motor trend tested it. If you're towing a camper that maxes out the towing capacity (8,000 lbs), as tested, it gets less than 100 miles of range on a full charge. That's simply not manageable. The range improves less than linearly as the load gets lighter. So half the capacity only improves range up to about 115 miles. Those numbers are dismal compared to a diesel with a 30 gallon tank.

But he was correct, buy the right tool for the job. Buy an EV for an around the town commuter, grocery getter and buy an ICE truck for hauling/towing.

 

[Willy P]

If you’re bored check out the tow tests on the Silverado EV. It’s actually pretty impressive how much range they got compared to the Lightning- I think 243 miles with an 8K or 10K pound trailer.

Chevy screwed up with the pricing though- they initially advertised 39k starting price and that turned into 80k a year later.

 

[Vol737]

I keep hearing about this mandate...but have never seen the mandate. To my knowledge, no American was going to be required to buy an EV from the Federal level. States might do different, but I'm not sure this announcement did...anything? to the average consumer.

It was basically an indirect mandate based on an EPA rule to cut greenhouse gas emissions in half, largely forcing auto manufacturers into producing mostly EVs, essentially a mandate. I was mostly referring to the stupid mandate in California by Newsome that no combustion gas engine vehicles would or could be sold in California by 2035. Sounds like one direct mandate and one indirect by the EPA.

Trump ends 'electric vehicle mandate,' withdraws US from Paris climate agreement

Trump declared a "national energy emergency" among several executive actions to carry out his long-promised "drill, baby, drill" agenda.

www.usatoday.com

 

[NorthDallas40]

Uh, my buddy pulls a giant horse trailer with his Lightning. You buy the tool for the job. Incline while towing? Range anxiety is getting 8mpg pulling a camper in a v8 Tundra.
The issues with electrics generally exist with ICE, as well. Again, just buy the tool for the job you have.

RE: Battery -- this is* a concern, but unless Trump just unwound it (haven't read all his EV changes), manufacturers have to do like 8 years, 100,000 miles on a battery. In that range, you'd also see engine failures that "total" the vehicle.

The key to this massive cost in battery replacement is for the market for secondary shops to increase. As more folks can manage the high voltage, prices will stabilize. It's not that the job is hard or the battery parts, themselves, that expensive vs engine rebuilds...it's labor. For a battery without issues, you'll see a loss in range, but not until well after 100,000mi....sorta like an old beat up engine loses HP and MPG over time. A well built battery should go for 200k, easy, without a crazy amount of degradation.

Energy is energy it doesn’t matter if it’s coming from a battery or stored in the distilled fluid from dino corpses. If your hypothetical ICE truck is consuming enough energy to only get 8 mpg then you’re going to be consuming the same energy sourced by a battery. That’s just an accounting problem in physics. Pulling big loads is going to require a really big battery. The tool for the job as you say!

 

[NorthDallas40]

If you’re bored check out the tow tests on the Silverado EV. It’s actually pretty impressive how much range they got compared to the Lightning- I think 243 miles with an 8K or 10K pound trailer.

Chevy screwed up with the pricing though- they initially advertised 39k starting price and that turned into 80k a year later.

I googled the battery. Impressive 205 kWh. Has a 460 mi range when not towing.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Motor trend tested it. If you're towing a camper that maxes out the towing capacity (8,000 lbs), as tested, it gets less than 100 miles of range on a full charge. That's simply not manageable. The range improves less than linearly as the load gets lighter. So half the capacity only improves range up to about 115 miles. Those numbers are dismal compared to a diesel with a 30 gallon tank.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/ford-f150-lightning-electric-truck-towing-test/

Absolutely pathetic range.

We had been warned to expect the range to be cut in half when towing, but the effect of towing these travel trailers proved even more significant. With the smallest and lightest trailer, we measured a range of just 115 miles. That figure fell to 100 miles with the middleweight camper and sank to a mere 90 miles with the 7,218-pound Grand Design trailer.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Also from the Motor Trend article

The tightly clustered results reveal that aerodynamics have a bigger impact on towing range than weight. Using the width and height of the trailers to calculate a crude approximation of frontal area, the larger two trailers more than double the area plowing through the air compared to an unladen F-150. If you're towing something smaller and sleeker, such as a boat, an open car hauler, or a utility trailer, you'll likely be able to push farther than we did on a single charge.

This goes back to what I said earlier. Energy is energy. Traveling at constant highway speeds it’s just an energy balance problem as you are not accelerating. Energy consumed is just balancing the rolling losses of the truck and trailer and, at highway speeds, aerodynamic losses. And aerodynamic drag goes up by the square of the velocity. The aerodynamic losses at 50 mph are four times the losses at 25 mph.

Physics doesn’t care if your energy comes from dino juice or a battery.

 

[jwells]

Motor trend tested it. If you're towing a camper that maxes out the towing capacity (8,000 lbs), as tested, it gets less than 100 miles of range on a full charge. That's simply not manageable. The range improves less than linearly as the load gets lighter. So half the capacity only improves range up to about 115 miles. Those numbers are dismal compared to a diesel with a 30 gallon tank.

Friend has the extended range and gets somewhere near 140-150mi on a charge towing. 10,000lb capacity on those. Anyway, how often are you towing 100mi+ in a go? Most people aren't. But let's say you are going to the gulf coast. You'll stop probably 2 times in your truck, anyway, just for food / bathroom. Maybe a third depending on the size of the Big Gulp at stop two.

Trying to do that electric, you might stop 4 to time out your charges, adding maybe an hour, max, to the trip. So like...12%?

Anyway, if you're towing often for long distances, buy the tool you need. If you're towing 1-2x a year at this distance, trading a couple hours of your life is probably worth the massive savings daily driving. The "MPG" equivalent is like 70-71 city/highway combined, vs like 25? For those who can do home charging, it's a great idea. But if you can't, well...don't?

 

[Willy P]

Friend has the extended range and gets somewhere near 140-150mi on a charge towing. 10,000lb capacity on those. Anyway, how often are you towing 100mi+ in a go? Most people aren't. But let's say you are going to the gulf coast. You'll stop probably 2 times in your truck, anyway, just for food / bathroom. Maybe a third depending on the size of the Big Gulp at stop two.

Trying to do that electric, you might stop 4 to time out your charges, adding maybe an hour, max, to the trip. So like...12%?

Anyway, if you're towing often for long distances, buy the tool you need. If you're towing 1-2x a year at this distance, trading a couple hours of your life is probably worth the massive savings daily driving. The "MPG" equivalent is like 70-71 city/highway combined, vs like 25? For those who can do home charging, it's a great idea. But if you can't, well...don't?

I've thought about an electric truck quite a bit. I have a 19' deck boat and a 27' travel trailer. Most of my trips towing are 10-40 miles, but I still think I'm more comfortable with the truck I have for now. My wife loves her new Model X though...

By the way, I think I could manage towing a boat or small trailer and stopping to charge- but I would be destroyed with anxiety thinking about charging when towing my camper long distances. There are lots of superchargers nowadays but 100 miles is too little range for comfort there.

 

[YankeeVol]

I googled the battery. Impressive 205 kWh. Has a 460 mi range when not towing.

The Silverado EV weighs as much as a regular Silverado 1500 AND a Chevy Malibu combined

 

[hog88]

I've thought about an electric truck quite a bit. I have a 19' deck boat and a 27' travel trailer. Most of my trips towing are 10-40 miles, but I still think I'm more comfortable with the truck I have for now. My wife loves her new Model X though...

By the way, I think I could manage towing a boat or small trailer and stopping to charge- but I would be destroyed with anxiety thinking about charging when towing my camper long distances. There are lots of superchargers nowadays but 100 miles is too little range for comfort there.

Not to mention finding a charger you could get to without unhooking your TT.

Friend of mine twos his bigass Malibu with his lightning without a problem, it's only 10-15 miles round trip from his house to the boat ramp but he says it pulls it just fine.

 

[jwells]

I've thought about an electric truck quite a bit. I have a 19' deck boat and a 27' travel trailer. Most of my trips towing are 10-40 miles, but I still think I'm more comfortable with the truck I have for now. My wife loves her new Model X though...

By the way, I think I could manage towing a boat or small trailer and stopping to charge- but I would be destroyed with anxiety thinking about charging when towing my camper long distances. There are lots of superchargers nowadays but 100 miles is too little range for comfort there.

I think if you have a truck that's paid for and works, jumping platforms isn't super necessary. But if you're looking to buy anyway, it's worthwhile to consider the EV version.
I went back and forth on this and ultimately decided that for 95% of my use...I never need more than 60-75 mi in a go. I am fortunate to have a 20 year old SUV if I need 4wd or light towing. Got rid of my 5 year old ICE and went EV. I'm spending something like 1/3 what I was before to charge at home. At this rate, the charger is paid for in the next 7-8 months. For the couple times I do take it long distance, I found most of my trips are within 4 hours. So one stop each way, which I would do anyway.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Motor trend tested it. If you're towing a camper that maxes out the towing capacity (8,000 lbs), as tested, it gets less than 100 miles of range on a full charge. That's simply not manageable. The range improves less than linearly as the load gets lighter. So half the capacity only improves range up to about 115 miles. Those numbers are dismal compared to a diesel with a 30 gallon tank.

My F250 diesel gets over 500mile range without towing. With towing it drops a little but not much.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Energy is energy it doesn’t matter if it’s coming from a battery or stored in the distilled fluid from dino corpses. If your hypothetical ICE truck is consuming enough energy to only get 8 mpg then you’re going to be consuming the same energy sourced by a battery. That’s just an accounting problem in physics. Pulling big loads is going to require a really big battery. The tool for the job as you say!

What rule is it that states... Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only change in form?