ESPN thinks we go 4-8 next year

Thx. I believe the same thing. Its insane that some Vol fans would give CBJ 3-5 yrs to get us to a bowl game/compete, then hunt for any excuse/reason other than coaching.
My money is on us getting to a bowl, maybe 7-5 this season....but Im not in love with coach salespitch stuff enough to wait 4 years to be competitive.
Bowl or bust baby!

Woooooooo......I'm not in that camp either. I just reserve the right to judge year 2 on more than wins or losses which can be a product of scheduling. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water. If butch signs another top five class and has us involved with top recruits from 2016, I'm not concerned with his record this season. That's all I'm saying. But I'm betting on a huge upset this fall, but if it doesn't happen, it's not time to put him on the hot seat in year three. We get a guy like Gibson to come in at qb it could change the fortunes of the program for years to come.
 
I thought VolNation.com was for VolNation? I guess everybody else is intimidated by us or wants to be a part of VolNation? Maybe both?
:question:
 
i looked it up because we were talking about talent earlier.

since the 2009 draft (following the 2008 season)

robert ayers-de
malik jackson-de
dan williams-dt
eric berry-s

these are all of the defensive players taken from tennessee in the last 5 drafts.

that's only 3 tennessee signees because jackson was a transfer.

mccullers is the only defensive player likely to be taken in this draft.

there are no linebackers. there are no cornerbacks.
 
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You do remember I am the guy who said year 2 would be better than year 1 before last season right.

What I was trying to imply was that if Tennessee is 5-7, that the level of underachievement is small and there are circumstances that make it understandable....not necessarily acceptable.

You mention talent and the nfl. Check how many Tennessee defensive players have been drafted in the last few years. Not one db since Eric berry. It's pathetic. Tennessee should have more players drafted by accident.

Now for years, I have given an opinion on tennessee's talent level. I criticized Dooley's recruiting. Have I done that with jones? Have I knocked jones' recruits?

You want progress? Look at the South Carolina and Georgia games for the best football Tennessee has played in years. Look at special teams. Injuries hurt in November. But, there was obvious improvement and a level of competiveness not seen in years. I would take that as a sign.

Why does it take a gator fan to actually tell us this? SJT I know we've butted heads a few times, but I agree with something you said earlier. IF CBJ is the guy 6-8 wins is a realistic goal for us this year. Nothing Less! And 7-10 wins next year is showing that the program is headed in the right direction. We should never lower our expectations to anything lower than at least a bowl game each year from here on out. And occasionally playing in the SECCG.

I go away and we're debating Spurrier and Urban and every other coach on this thread. Jones is the Coach! This is his team and he has 3 years maybe 4 depending on his record (that is the standard now at most top programs and probably won't change unless you do a Petrino) and he should win with this team or we get a new coach its that simple.
 
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Fulmer was fired for having two losing seasons in four years. Butch will have two in two. Butch was nowhere near the first choice of the fans or the AD. I think he was lucky to get the job not the other way around. Three years is plenty of time to prove whether he can win here. No excuses.

Let's fire another coach! Who wants to be Tennessees fifth football coach in about a decade?
 
I hate sitting with my folks between Christmas and New Years and watching 35+ bowl games and not ONE of them has UT in it! I just want to see Tennessee play in any bowl even if it is the Independence Bowl!
 
i looked it up because we were talking about talent earlier.

since the 2009 draft (following the 2008 season)

robert ayers-de
malik jackson-de
dan williams-dt
eric berry-s

these are all of the defensive players taken from tennessee in the last 5 drafts.

that's only 3 tennessee signees because jackson was a transfer.

mccullers is the only defensive player likely to be taken in this draft.

there are no linebackers. there are no cornerbacks.

One slight caveat to those facts is that AJ has been a 4 year starter for UT. Austin Johnson and Sapp were decent players during that same period.
 
I hate sitting with my folks between Christmas and New Years and watching 35+ bowl games and not ONE of them has UT in it! I just want to see Tennessee play in any bowl even if it is the Independence Bowl!

That would be a nice, positive step forward. I don't think you're asking too much of Jones... I just don't.
 
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So who were the other quality guys that were available? We ended up paying CBJ more than Strong or Gundy made. There were not a lot of big time quality coaches that were lined up to take the job.

Louisville bumped up Strong's yearly salary to 3.7 million base. Butch Jones' base salary is about 3.2 million, so you're wrong there.

Plenty of quality coaches were available. Malzahn was available. Auburn got him for far less than we paid Butch Jones.
 
Saw recent SOS reports had UT 2nd in conference and 3rd nationally.

The OU game could literally cost this team a bowl.
Oregon did last year. Team learned nothing and likely damaged confidence going in to face a troubled Florida team.

With the conference schedule this team has nothing to prove. Plus it desperately needs home game revenue.
 
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Oregon didnt cost us a bowl. Vandy and UGA did. We had both of those and let them slip.


Florida was pretty healthy when we played them. Driskel got hurt but that's about it. That was right before they started to fall apart.
 
You want progress? Look at the South Carolina and Georgia games for the best football Tennessee has played in years. Look at special teams. Injuries hurt in November. But, there was obvious improvement and a level of competiveness not seen in years. I would take that as a sign.
I do. IMO, UGA was a bit better than USCe in that respect though a loss.

We just have and continue to disagree on the current amount of talent on campus.
Do we disagree? Do you honestly NOT think this is a team capable of winning 6-8 games with effective coaching? Do you think UT "should" lose to USU, Chatt, ASU, UK, or Vandy? Do you disagree that UT has enters '14 with a BETTER roster situation than Mizzou?

I think with some breaks, they have the potential to steal one from UF, USCe, OM, or UGA.

But you are falling into that same old trap- its only talent and coaching is worth nothing or at least not much. If Jones IS the right guy to win championships at UT then he MUST win games against teams with similar or greater levels of talent, right? You don't think Spurrier is winning at USCe because he has more talent than UGA, UF, Bama, LSU, et al... do you?

I want to see some tangible sign that when it is "money time"... Jones can win "big games". Vandy was a "big" game last fall since Jones had set UT's goal at making a bowl. He and his team didn't get it done. All the excuses in the world don't change that.

So, it's going to be a struggle again with a bunch of babies out there. But, I believe 2014 is better than 2013 and this whole thread will be moot point anyway.
Me too. And that's an honest conviction. I have come to it. I didn't quite feel that way before spring practice. If a LT can be found then I think the O will improve overall by about a TD per game. That is enough in itself to likely equate to an additional win. I think for the first time in awhile UT will be fairly solid in the back 7 on D. I think improvement depends almost completely on getting Saulsberry back at DT.

I expect the O to be around 5 or 6 pts better (28-30 ppg). I expect the D to be about 3 or 4 ppg better (24-26 ppg). Honestly, if Jones is a championship level coach I don't think that is an extraordinary improvement expectation for year two even with youth and roster issues... and considering the schedule.

But, if I am wrong, I would like to think people will take youth into account and have the vision to understand that there is actually talent out there, especially in places not seen in years.
The problem is that wins are needed at UT to keep recruits coming. If there is no tangible improvement then selling kids on some distant future success won't cut it anymore. IMHO, he needs to get to a bowl game so he can point to progress and land the same kinds of kids he signed this past class.

UF, UGA, LSU, and to a lesser extent Auburn, Bama, USCe, and TAM can get enough good players to create a solid foundation without leaving home. UT can't. UT needs out of state players. Once a kid chooses to leave his home state... he's not going to the school with 4 consecutive 5-7 seasons with no visible improvement. He's going to the "hot" schools and "hot" coaches.
 
One slight caveat to those facts is that AJ has been a 4 year starter for UT. Austin Johnson and Sapp were decent players during that same period.

No offense 18, but 99Gator took you to the woodshed on this point. You'd do well to admit it, tip your cap and move on to another debate.
 
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Let's fire another coach! Who wants to be Tennessees fifth football coach in about a decade?

Oh no. Let's keep a guy who loses to teams with less talent and can't seem to get the most out of a roster... that'll prove to recruits and the CFB world that UT is serious about being a contender.

Actually it is sort of a catch-22. You cut a guy too soon then possible replacements could be harder to find and you just might let a guy go that could have turned it around. You keep a guy too long then you risk digging the hole deeper... which again weighs into a potential replacement's decision.

How much worse could things have gotten if Fulmer or Dooley had been kept another year? Go back and take a look at the class Fulmer was "building" the fall he was fired. Even the ones Kiffin didn't cut loose didn't make much of a contribution. Another year with Dooley, your scouting the intramural fields for help.

Jones needs to show progress within 3 years. It doesn't have to be championships that quickly though being talked about in the SECE race would help. It can take different forms... but it has to be tangible and shown by more W's.

Barring disaster, he gets year 3. If he reaches around 21 wins in his first 3 years however they break down then I think he likely gets a year 4.

NO ONE is looking for a miracle. Making a bowl with a roster of very talented young players and in spite of some "holes" is NOT a miracle. It is what top shelf coaches do.
 
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sjt18

i understand what you mean. i really do. i agree with you more than you think.

in fact, it's one of the reasons i expected year 2 to be better than year 1 before last year started in the first place. the other being that, imo, inexperienced talent > experienced lack of talent.

but, i believe it's very hard for coaches to "outcoach" opponents in year 1 with (a) people still learning new systems and (b) weeding out players who are buying in for those who aren't all in.

but, i have always said that recruiting is important because it makes a game a fair fight and you don't win without players. however, in the sec, there are 6 or 7 squads that have a significant amount of players. it's the one warning i have given about jones' recruiting ability. it's wonderful that tennessee is getting players like that once again. however, lsu, georgia, alabama, etc, etc, etc, are still getting players too.

so, you are right. in the end, it's the coach who is going to make the difference.
 
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No offense 18, but 99Gator took you to the woodshed on this point. You'd do well to admit it, tip your cap and move on to another debate.

No offense taken. UT has not had great talent on D for a few years. The recruiting part of it stretches well back into the latter Fulmer years. It flat out got to the point that he could not sign DT's. I think he once called that position the most important to recruit well.

What I compare to though is what Wilcox did when given "lemons"... then what Jancek did. It would be completely unrealistic to expect that talent to be under the SEC avg of ppg (about 24) or ypg (380). But Vandy isn't exactly loading NFL rosters right now... and they managed to be "average".

Dooley's ill-fated attempt to switch to the 3-4 and the decision to hire Sal compounded all of these problems.

I have never said it was a "good" situation. I'm just looking for real, tangible results from Jones that are different and better than what we've seen from Fulmer's last few years, Kiffin, and Dooley.
 
in fact, it's one of the reasons i expected year 2 to be better than year 1 before last year started in the first place. the other being that, imo, inexperienced talent > experienced lack of talent.
.

There is some truth there. And there is truth to the point some have made that the roster inherited while more talented than the results showed were not players suited to what Jones wants to do on O or D. I can buy that... but that would still make it reasonable to expect better results as the roster gets more talent and moves toward what he wants in athletes, right?

IMO, this was one of the major factors contributing to Fulmer's downfall. He stuck tightly to "you stay, you play". His philosophy was close to the opposite of what you say here. It took a Berry level talent with him (and a position without depth at that) to start a Fr.
 
Louisville bumped up Strong's yearly salary to 3.7 million base. Butch Jones' base salary is about 3.2 million, so you're wrong there.

Plenty of quality coaches were available. Malzahn was available. Auburn got him for far less than we paid Butch Jones.

Strong was a risk too but I was more excited about him than Jones.

Malzahn's resume was not as good as Jones'. He is a good coach but he also inherited a pretty talented team.
 
Saw recent SOS reports had UT 2nd in conference and 3rd nationally.

The OU game could literally cost this team a bowl.
Oregon did last year. Team learned nothing and likely damaged confidence going in to face a troubled Florida team.

With the conference schedule this team has nothing to prove. Plus it desperately needs home game revenue.

The game's set...our AD isn't Hamilton and Dooley isn't the coach...Butch and Hart honor their agreements...get used to this way of doing business. :rock:
 
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The game's set...our AD isn't Hamilton and Dooley isn't the coach...Butch and Hart honor their agreements...get used to this way of doing business. :rock:

Don't forget... OU wasn't exactly stellar last year. Were they good? Of course, look how their season ENDED. Look at the season as A WHOLE and you won't be so impressed. I promise. I'm not saying we win, but the fact that they beat Bama has put this mentality of "oh it's gonna be a blowout" in some peoples' minds. We might be more competitive there than people think if our offense, defense, or both are prepared.
 
Strong was a risk too but I was more excited about him than Jones.

Malzahn's resume was not as good as Jones'. He is a good coach but he also inherited a pretty talented team.

Malzahn did a great job with the INCREDIBLY TALENTED team he inherited last year. I remember before the season thinking the Auburn game was a toss up.....and then I saw them play LSU and almost immediately knew it was a damn near certain loss.
 

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