Excitement

[MemphisCanes]

They don't add any impact players? Technically true, but I don't think the jarnell stokes you saw last year is the same guy you'll see this year. Also, we only had him for half a season, you include him the first half of the year and Tennessee was dancing last year.

No offense, but I can't see how you can say that, when he was playing in the Ole Miss and MTSU games.

I also personally think dmontre will be an impact guy. Not anyone who will blow you away, but a good defender, great rebounder and someone who probably is going to get you 8&6 from the 3 spot every night.

I'm sure Edwards will be fine at the 3. I wouldn't call that impactful though. From all reports, he hasn't even solidified his starting role yet, so all this is fairly speculative.

Yes this is the same team that lost to those teams, its also the same team that beat Florida twice, curb stomped vandy, and handled UCONN pretty easily.

It is. This season there shouldn't be any losses to Austin Peay, Oakland or CoC. UT will most definitely get some good wins as well, especially at home.

The things that hurt Tennessee were that bad losses early on, you take away AP and Oakland losses and swap those to wins and this team was in the tourney.

Again, that's speculation. Can't agree or disagree really.

Bama IMO is probably about the same, lost some gained some, see the around the same. Florida is tougher, but we also only play them once now, at TBA this year. Our OOC schedule is much easier than last years, not cupcakes, but good teams who we should be favored against(not Memphis).

I said 6/7 seed, many have vols in the top 25, those that don't have them very close. A 6/7 seed is 20-28 best teams(I'm aware it doesn't work that way). So I don't think it's really that unrealistic all things considered.

I agree that UT should make the tournament this year, but i would set the baseline more at a 9-10 seed. If Martin gets this squad to over perform, and they TCOB @ TBA, I could see higher.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I agree that UT should make the tournament this year, but i would set the baseline more at a 9-10 seed. If Martin gets this squad to over perform, and they TCOB @ TBA, I could see higher.

If he is on this team against Oakland, COC and AP we don't lose those games, that's just about guaranteed. I know you won't admit it, and there's no way to prove it, but I have trouble believing we lose those 3 games with stokes.

I guess that depends on your definition of impactful. Will he have an impact? Yes, so technically he's impactful. All seriousness though, I think he's an upgrade over tatum, IMO that's impactful.

Saying if they beat COC, AP and Oakland, instead of losing and they'd be in the tourney isn't speculation. Look at their resume with those 3 wins, and taking away those 3 losses, that's a tourney team.

Once again, many have them in the top 25, that'd put them 6/7 seed range. So it's just you really that sees them as the 35-40 ranked team in the country.

 

[MemphisCanes]

If he is on this team against Oakland, COC and AP we don't lose those games, that's just about guaranteed. I know you won't admit it, and there's no way to prove it, but I have trouble believing we lose those 3 games with stokes.

I guess that depends on your definition of impactful. Will he have an impact? Yes, so technically he's impactful. All seriousness though, I think he's an upgrade over tatum, IMO that's impactful.

Saying if they beat COC, AP and Oakland, instead of losing and they'd be in the tourney isn't speculation. Look at their resume with those 3 wins, and taking away those 3 losses, that's a tourney team.

Once again, many have them in the top 25, that'd put them 6/7 seed range. So it's just you really that sees them as the 35-40 ranked team in the country.

Saying "they beat those 3 teams and they're in the tourney" is the definition of speculation, BTO.

I also think you're asking a lot for Edwards to come in and be an improvement over Cam Tatum. Tatum may have under performed, but he was a 4-star senior who had seen significant play time in 4 seasons of high-major d1 ball. Edwards is coming from Brevard CC, who knows the level of opposition he saw in that league?

I haven't seen many pre-season rankings yet, but do a lot of them really have the Vols in the top 25?

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Saying "they beat those 3 teams and they're in the tourney" is the definition of speculation, BTO.

I also think you're asking a lot for Edwards to come in and be an improvement over Cam Tatum. Tatum may have under performed, but he was a 4-star senior who had seen significant play time in 4 seasons of high-major d1 ball. Edwards is coming from Brevard CC, who knows the level of opposition he saw in that league?

I haven't seen many pre-season rankings yet, but do a lot of them really have the Vols in the top 25?

That's like saying if Memphis played to their level they'd have beaten rice last year, that's speculation, but c'mon.

I think most people would agree, if we stokes we win all 3 of those, and atleast 2 of the 3.

And yes, most have Tennessee top 25, if they're not top 25, most have them just outside and in the top 30.

 

[MemphisCanes]

That's like saying if Memphis played to their level they'd have beaten rice last year, that's speculation, but c'mon.

I think most people would agree, if we stokes we win all 3 of those, and atleast 2 of the 3.

And yes, most have Tennessee top 25, if they're not top 25, most have them just outside and in the top 30.

That's not speculation because it can be proven: we did beat Rice last year.

Top 30-35 sounds more like it for UT, at least until we can see how they perform in the Puerto Rican.

 

[Jestes311]

Wow. Going all in for this season. That is a bold prediction. I like it.

#1 overall seed, imo.

Stokes is ewheehoo and McBee can't be stopped.

Raise the banner now.

 

[dixiebullfrog]

Nice try; typical BTO tactic; 2nd yr to 2nd yr below:

How many years has pastner been there, how many has CCM been there? Same

Who has the more talented roster? UM had talented freshmen; UT has entire team back with experienced PG leadership.

Which team is widely considered top 15? Agree UM was way overrated pre-season based on freshmen. Pastner kicked Kendrick (McD AA) off team before season started; not Top 15 anymore.

Which team has been to the tourney twice and knocked out first round? N/A

Answer these and you should be able to answer your question. So, CCM has to make tourney and win in 2nd yr; otherwise, must be criticized like you do Pastner.

As far as the seed...I don't see UT being worse than a 6/7 seed, if we are a 9/10 see that'd be a dissapointment IMO. From NIT loss to #9 seed with same team; disappointed?

Apples to apples, BTO. Pastner's 2nd yr to CCM's 2nd yr. The point is you lowered the bar for Martin. Pastner made the NCAA/lost; Martin must make tourney and win for accolades/pay raise.

 

[MemphisCanes]

Apples to apples, BTO. Pastner's 2nd yr to CCM's 2nd yr. The point is you lowered the bar for Martin. Pastner made the NCAA/lost; Martin must make tourney and win for accolades/pay raise.

Makes sense.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

That's not speculation because it can be proven: we did beat Rice last year.

Top 30-35 sounds more like it for UT, at least until we can see how they perform in the Puerto Rican.

Which would be deserving of 7/8 not 9/10...

 

[MemphisCanes]

Which would be deserving of 7/8 not 9/10...

Would put them in the 8,9 seed range I guess.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Apples to apples, BTO. Pastner's 2nd yr to CCM's 2nd yr. The point is you lowered the bar for Martin. Pastner made the NCAA/lost; Martin must make tourney and win for accolades/pay raise.

If you can't see differences between the 2 situations it's really not worth discussing any further with you.

I'm not discussing Pastners second year, I'm criticizing him for where he currently is. The bashing of pastner is mainly based off his underwhelming coaching job last year.

And I'm really not getting your point...I said if CCm makes the tourney he will deserve a raise, I didn't say anything else. That more a testament to what he's been able to do, and how bad things where, than what it says about pastner.

That's like you saying, oh Tom crean did this at Indiana in this year and pastner did this...comparing 2 totally different things and I'm simply talking about CCM and what he has shown to the UT AD.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Would put them in the 8,9 seed range I guess.

Ok so we really aren't that far apart then.

 

[MemphisCanes]

If you can't see differences between the 2 situations it's really not worth discussing any further with you.

I'm not discussing Pastners second year, I'm criticizing him for where he currently is. The bashing of pastner is mainly based off his underwhelming coaching job last year.

For my edification, what do YOU see as the differences? I see them as pretty similar.

As for what Pastner did last year, he won 26 games, his conference regular season and tournament handily (which is expected of Memphis), got to the dance but got horribly seeded, and then matched up against the other most underseeded team. What you're criticizing him on is getting to the dance and losing, really. Almost all of this your own coach has not been able to do in one more year as a HC.

The more you criticize Pastner, the higher and higher you're setting the bar for Martin.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

For my edification, what do YOU see as the differences? I see them as pretty similar.

As for what Pastner did last year, he won 26 games, his conference regular season and tournament handily (which is expected of Memphis), got to the dance but got horribly seeded, and then matched up against the other most underseeded team. What you're criticizing him on is getting to the dance and losing, really. Almost all of this your own coach has not been able to do in one more year as a HC.

The more you criticize Pastner, the higher and higher you're setting the bar for Martin.

Do you take expectations the least bit into account, and please save me the overseeded/under seeded, over ranked, unreasonable expectation arguments.

Memphis has been expected to win their conference, win their tournament, make the NCAA tournament, win a NCAA game, be top 10-15 team...every year. And what all of that has Pastner done, he has underachieved in all 3 years he has been there...and no I doubt you'll admit it, but everyone outside Memphis will.

Meanwhile, CCM was expected to finish 11th in the SEC, make no post season tounament, and best case bring some stability to the program and show promise for the future. CCM not only met expectations, but exceeded them last year, and is on a much quicker pace to have Tennessee headed in the right direction than anyone expected.

Once again, my statement was about Martin getting a raise from UT....not sure why you guys are trying to turn this into Martin vs. Pastner.

 

[MemphisCanes]

No, I try not to take expectations into account. Expectations are subjective and frankly, dumb. You twist both expectations to your benefit by implying that: A) Memphis underperformed because of coaching and not because expectations were off because talent was overestimated; and B) Tennessee overperformed because of coaching and not because espectations were off because talent was underestimated.

Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

When viewed objectively, Pastner took a team made up of almost solely freshmen that he recruited in his second term as HC to the NCAAs, and improved upon that in his third year.

You denegrate Pastner for this, yet hold out that should Martin do it with a more experienced team, he deserves adulation and a bump in pay.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Expectations may be dumb in your opinion, but 99% of decisions made by AD's (raises, extensions, dismissals etc etc) are based off results in relation to expectations.

Memphis fans are the only ones who think pastner has done an adequate job, thus there's no reason to try and have a conversation with one on this topic.

Pastner has underachieved by any persons (not memphis fan) reasonable expectation all 3 years, CCM exceeded expectations...it's really as simple as that.

 

[MemphisCanes]

Memphis fans are the only ones who think pastner has done an adequate job, thus there's no reason to try and have a conversation with one on this topic.

Pastner has underachieved by any persons (not memphis fan) reasonable expectation all 3 years, CCM exceeded expectations...it's really as simple as that.

So CCM should be able to pilot this team to the second round in order to meet expectations, correct?

Pastner couldn't get an NCAA win his second year, and he underachieved that year. Logically, that's the bar for CCM to at least meet expectations.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

So CCM should be able to pilot this team to the second round in order to meet expectations, correct?

Pastner couldn't get an NCAA win his second year, and he underachieved that year. Logically, that's the bar for CCM to at least meet expectations.

I don't recall saying that, can you link where I said that's the expectation for CCM this year?

I HAVE said the expectation is a NCAA appearance, and that I THINK they'll win atleast one...maybe you misremembered.

While you're finding that...why don't you refresh my memory what Memphis was ranked pre season that year? What's Tennessee ranked pre season this year? Unless its the same, then no, "logically" expectations shouldn't be the same.

 

[MemphisCanes]

I don't recall saying that, can you link where I said that's the expectation for CCM this year?

I HAVE said the expectation is a NCAAs appearance, and that I THINK they'll win atleast one...maybe you misremembered.

I'm just trying to follow your argument logically. Pastner underperformed in his second year by ONLY reaching the NCAA and not winning a game.

Yet, your expectations for your coach, who has a year more HC experience, are not the same. Should Martin, in his second year at UT, make the NCAAs but not win a game, you will be happy.

Pastner gets held to a higher standard than Martin. I'm wondering if you'll tell me why?

 

[MemphisCanes]

I don't recall saying that, can you link where I said that's the expectation for CCM this year?

I HAVE said the expectation is a NCAA appearance, and that I THINK they'll win atleast one...maybe you misremembered.

While you're finding that...why don't you refresh my memory what Memphis was ranked pre season that year? What's Tennessee ranked pre season this year? Unless its the same, then no, "logically" expectations shouldn't be the same.

Why do pre-season rankings mean more than how far either coach progresses in March?

 

[dixiebullfrog]

No, I try not to take expectations into account. Expectations are subjective and frankly, dumb. You twist both expectations to your benefit by implying that: A) Memphis underperformed because of coaching and not because expectations were off because talent was overestimated; and B) Tennessee overperformed because of coaching and not because espectations were off because talent was underestimated.

Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

When viewed objectively, Pastner took a team made up of almost solely freshmen that he recruited in his second term as HC to the NCAAs, and improved upon that in his third year.

You denegrate Pastner for this, yet hold out that should Martin do it with a more experienced team, he deserves adulation and a bump in pay.

That's pretty much my point.

Note: Pastner was NOT expected to do much his 1st yr; had team 'leftovers' following King Kal's evacuation. Elliot Williams (Duke transfer/UT target) saved the Tigers' bacon and lead them to NIT and win over St Johns. Monumental coaching overachievement in his rookie yr --- led to "Top 5" recruiting class for 2010.

Even these events pretty much mirror Martin's 1st yr/NIT and subsequent recruiting success. Not the same?

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I'm just trying to follow your argument logically. Pastner underperformed in his second year by ONLY reaching the NCAA and not winning a game.

Yet, your expectations for your coach, who has a year more HC experience, are not the same. Should Martin, in his second year at UT, make the NCAAs but not win a game, you will be happy.

Pastner gets held to a higher standard than Martin. I'm wondering if you'll tell me why?

So if I'm understanding you correctly....

Every coach in division 1, who is entering their 4th year as a HC, should all be held to the same expectation?

Genius.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Why do pre-season rankings mean more than how far either coach progresses in March?

Nobody said that.

You're asking about meeting expectations...a good way to measure expectations are pre season rankings.

Memphis has been ranked preseason all 3 of Pastners years, his 2nd year, the one you're trying to compare...I believe they were ranked preseason top 10....is Tennessee going to be ranked pre season top 10?

So why should a team who's picked top 10, have the same expectations as a team picked around 25? That makes ZERO sense.

Like I said...are you trying to say all coaches with the same length of experience should also all have the same expectations?

 

[tennrich1]

For my edification, what do YOU see as the differences? I see them as pretty similar.

As for what Pastner did last year, he won 26 games, his conference regular season and tournament handily (which is expected of Memphis), got to the dance but got horribly seeded, and then matched up against the other most underseeded team. What you're criticizing him on is getting to the dance and losing, really. Almost all of this your own coach has not been able to do in one more year as a HC.

The more you criticize Pastner, the higher and higher you're setting the bar for Martin.

Boy talking about twisting the facts to support a point...every basketball fan who's worth his salt knows CJP has GREATLY underachieved with the level of talent he has....that's stating the obvious...in fact....I think CJP would probably agree with that assetment...

 

[MemphisCanes]

So if I'm understanding you correctly....

Every coach in division 1, who is entering their 4th year as a HC, should all be held to the same expectation?

Genius.

Are you implying that there is some reason that Pastner, in his second year at Memphis, and Martin, in his second year at UT, are not in a comparable situation?

Both coaches have had a year to bring in their own recruiting class. Pastner started 4 freshmen and a junior, CCM is starting 2 seniors, a junior, a sophomore (sort of) and a JuCo most likely. The experience edge, in both coaching and players, goes to CCM. Yet CCM is held to a lower standard than Pastner in your mind.

Is there some reason that expectations for UT's coach should be less than the expectations at Memphis?