Excitement

#51
#51
dixiebullfrog said:
That's pretty much my point.

Note: Pastner was NOT expected to do much his 1st yr; had team 'leftovers' following King Kal's evacuation. Elliot Williams (Duke transfer/UT target) saved the Tigers' bacon and lead them to NIT and win over St Johns. Monumental coaching overachievement in his rookie yr --- led to "Top 5" recruiting class for 2010.

Even these events pretty much mirror Martin's 1st yr/NIT and subsequent recruiting success. Not the same?
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What where expectations for Pastners 2nd year?

What are expectations for Martin's 2nd year?

The answer to your question...no, not the same.

But if I'm understanding correctly, by your alls theory, it Martin wins a NCAA game this year...then You'll say Martin>Pastner?
 
#52
#52
tennrich1 said:
Boy talking about twisting the facts to support a point...every basketball fan who's worth his salt knows CJP has GREATLY underachieved with the level of talent he has....that's stating the obvious...in fact....I think CJP would probably agree with that assetment...
Click to expand...

Use some evidence, besides pre-season polls, to support your claim please. Or, if your only argument is based on pre-season polls and the fact that Pastner did not perform like Cal currently does with new players, then say that.
 
#53
#53
MemphisCanes said:
Are you implying that there is some reason that Pastner, in his second year at Memphis, and Martin, in his second year at UT, are not in a comparable situation?

Both coaches have had a year to bring in their own recruiting class. Pastner started 4 freshmen and a junior, CCM is starting 2 seniors, a junior, a sophomore (sort of) and a JuCo most likely. The experience edge, in both coaching and players, goes to CCM. Yet CCM is held to a lower standard than Pastner in your mind.

Is there some reason that expectations for UT's coach should be less than the expectations at Memphis?
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And the biggest component talent...you conveniently leave out...which team has the higher rated players? Kentucky has shown it experience doesn't necessarily matter...

And if you honestly believe both coaches stepped into the same recruiting playing field...this conversation should just stop immediately.

Once again...get me the preseason rankings for both teams....let me know what the expectations were by a neutral party....
 
#54
#54
bleedingTNorange said:
What where expectations for Pastners 2nd year?

What are expectations for Martin's 2nd year?

The answer to your question...no, not the same.

But if I'm understanding correctly, by your alls theory, it Martin wins a NCAA game this year...then You'll say Martin>Pastner?
Click to expand...

No, that's in essence what YOU are saying. By your argument, if he does not win an NCAA game his second season, then he underperformed just like you think Pastner did.

The only thing you're using to support your position is pre-season rankings, which are nothing more than guesses.
 
#55
#55
bleedingTNorange said:
And the biggest component talent...you conveniently leave out...which team has the higher rated players? Kentucky has shown it experience doesn't necessarily matter...

And if you honestly believe both coaches stepped into the same recruiting playing field...this conversation should just stop immediately.
Click to expand...

So CCM is being held to a lower standard than Pastner because he's a poorer recruiter???

Was someone other than CCM in charge of recruiting the 2012 class?
 
#56
#56
MemphisCanes said:
Use some evidence, besides pre-season polls, to support your claim please. Or, if your only argument is based on pre-season polls and the fact that Pastner did not perform like Cal currently does with new players, then say that.
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Pastner met nobody, outside of Memphis, expectations.

There's no arguing that, yet somehow you'll continue to.
 
#57
#57
MemphisCanes said:
No, that's in essence what YOU are saying. By your argument, if he does not win an NCAA game his second season, then he underperformed just like you think Pastner did.

The only thing you're using to support your position is pre-season rankings, which are nothing more than guesses.
Click to expand...

Please tell me where I said if Martin doesn't win a NCAA game he has underperformed....I'll wait....
 
#58
#58
bleedingTNorange said:
Please tell me where I said if Martin doesn't win a NCAA game he has underperformed....I'll wait....
Click to expand...

You're either arguing that Martin is underperforming if he doesn't win an NCAA game this season, or that he should be held to a lower standard than Pastner, who has a year less experience than Martin.

If it's the latter, I'd like you to tell us why.
 
#59
#59
MemphisCanes said:
So CCM is being held to a lower standard than Pastner because he's a poorer recruiter???

Was someone other than CCM in charge of recruiting the 2012 class?
Click to expand...

As I said...if you honestly think they walked into the same situation for recruiting, then just stop...that's the most ludicrous thing I've heard.

For starters, was pastner on cals staff at Memphis? Was CCM on pearls staff at Tennessee?
 
#60
#60
MemphisCanes said:
You're either arguing that Martin is underperforming if he doesn't win an NCAA game this season, or that he should be held to a lower standard than Pastner, who has a year less experience than Martin.

If it's the latter, I'd like you to tell us why.
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You've still not answered my question...

If I'm understanding this...any coach with the same longevity, should all be held to the same standard apparently?

No matter the school, no matter where thy came from, no matter when they were hired, no matter where this is....no matter what, they should all be held to the same.

Am I understanding your theory correctly?
 
#61
#61
bleedingTNorange said:
Pastner met nobody, outside of Memphis, expectations.

There's no arguing that, yet somehow you'll continue to.
Click to expand...

The pre-season poll argument is weak. Are you ok with Martin making the tourney for the next 10 seasons and getting bounced in the first round, as long as UT doesn't appear in the pre-season top 25?

Results > Expectations.
 
#62
#62
bleedingTNorange said:
You've still not answered my question...

If I'm understanding this...any coach with the same longevity, should all be held to the same standard apparently?

No matter the school, no matter where thy came from, no matter when they were hired, no matter where this is....no matter what, they should all be held to the same.

Am I understanding your theory correctly?
Click to expand...

Absolutely not, all coaches shouldn't be held to the same standards. Coaches at much better programs should have better results.

I guess I'm getting my answer, Pastner is held to a higher standard, in your mind, because Memphis is a significantly better program that UT, in your mind. Am i getting warm?
 
#63
#63
bleedingTNorange said:
While you're finding that...why don't you refresh my memory what Memphis was ranked pre season that year? What's Tennessee ranked pre season this year? Unless its the same, then no, "logically" expectations shouldn't be the same.
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So you're only argument is pre-season rankings? When did our coaches/their expectations drop out of this discussion?

Pre-season rankings are just that; doesn't take into account season-ending injuries to a starter (McD AA A. Thomas) and 6th man (Carmouche). Coupled with Ferrakohn Hall coming on board in mid-December and Joe Jackson's meltdown, Pastner pulled them together and won 20 of 23 to finish season. C-USA aside, that's impressive. Won regular season title, won conf tourney, and played horribly against St. Louis. With basically 3 or 4 sophomores starting, overall not too shabby. Will even go so far as to say his coaching with Jackson keep him at UM and allowed the season to play out very much in our favor.

I'm done; coaching was the topic and we've gone down that trail. Wish only the best for Martin, but your Pastner-bashing is misplaced and unfounded. Could he have done better? Yeah, but so could Cal; he only won one title in three years with the best recruiting class each year. Go figure....
 
#64
#64
dixiebullfrog said:
So you're only argument is pre-season rankings? When did our coaches/their expectations drop out of this discussion?

Pre-season rankings are just that; doesn't take into account season-ending injuries to a starter (McD AA A. Thomas) and 6th man (Carmouche). Coupled with Ferrakohn Hall coming on board in mid-December and Joe Jackson's meltdown, Pastner pulled them together and won 20 of 23 to finish season. C-USA aside, that's impressive. Won regular season title, won conf tourney, and played horribly against St. Louis. With basically 3 or 4 sophomores starting, overall not too shabby. Will even go so far as to say his coaching with Jackson keep him at UM and allowed the season to play out very much in our favor.

I'm done; coaching was the topic and we've gone down that trail. Wish only the best for Martin, but your Pastner-bashing is misplaced and unfounded. Could he have done better? Yeah, but so could Cal; he only won one title in three years with the best recruiting class each year. Go figure....
Click to expand...

This
 
#65
#65
MemphisCanes said:
Absolutely not, all coaches shouldn't be held to the same standards. Coaches at much better programs should have better results.

I guess I'm getting my answer, Pastner is held to a higher standard, in your mind, because Memphis is a significantly better program that UT, in your mind. Am i getting warm?
Click to expand...

Uhm yea. I think it'd take a pretty dumb person to say UT basketball program was > than the Memphis program in Cals last year compared to Pearls.

Immediate expectations were much higher for pastner than Martin, if you can't recognize that I suggest you be a bit more subjective.
 
#66
#66
tennrich1 said:
Boy talking about twisting the facts to support a point...every basketball fan who's worth his salt knows CJP has GREATLY underachieved with the level of talent he has....that's stating the obvious...in fact....I think CJP would probably agree with that assetment...
Click to expand...

You and BTO conveniently combine "facts" and perceptions to judge a season. MC and I are trying to support Pastner with real facts and point out that had UM beaten St. Louis (one NCAA game) and/or had Witherspoon's last shot against AZ taken it to OT (one NCAA game), we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

If CCM does similarly the next two yrs, you'll give him a ticker-tape parade.
 
#67
#67
dixiebullfrog said:
So you're only argument is pre-season rankings? When did our coaches/their expectations drop out of this discussion?

Pre-season rankings are just that; doesn't take into account season-ending injuries to a starter (McD AA A. Thomas) and 6th man (Carmouche). Coupled with Ferrakohn Hall coming on board in mid-December and Joe Jackson's meltdown, Pastner pulled them together and won 20 of 23 to finish season. C-USA aside, that's impressive. Won regular season title, won conf tourney, and played horribly against St. Louis. With basically 3 or 4 sophomores starting, overall not too shabby. Will even go so far as to say his coaching with Jackson keep him at UM and allowed the season to play out very much in our favor.

I'm done; coaching was the topic and we've gone down that trail. Wish only the best for Martin, but your Pastner-bashing is misplaced and unfounded. Could he have done better? Yeah, but so could Cal; he only won one title in three years with the best recruiting class each year. Go figure....
Click to expand...

You're the one that turned this into a pastner discussion, I simply stated that Martin if he made the dance deserved a raise...and you freaked out, and started going on about pastner.

Good reasons for last year, and what about the year before that that they underperformed? I'm sure you wont admit it, but according to everyone outside of Memphis, he underachieved.
 
#68
#68
dixiebullfrog said:
You and BTO conveniently combine "facts" and perceptions to judge a season. MC and I are trying to support Pastner with real facts and point out that had UM beaten St. Louis (one NCAA game) and/or had Witherspoon's last shot against AZ taken it to OT (one NCAA game), we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

If CCM does similarly the next two yrs, you'll give him a ticker-tape parade.
Click to expand...

Once again the scenarios are not identical...

And if this where that's and that where this...UT would've made the dance and made the final four and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

See how fun it is to play the if game.
 
#69
#69
Coach Martin being a disciple of Gene Keady know's how to win games, Coach Keady could win games but was a terrible tournament coack at least from a won loss perspective, and I do not know how judge baskball games other than wins or losses
 
#70
#70
I do like that MC and Dixie ar going to anoint CCM the better coach if he simply wins a game in the tourney, should be fun to revisit.
 
#71
#71
bleedingTNorange said:
Uhm yea. I think it'd take a pretty dumb person to say UT basketball program was > than the Memphis program in Cals last year compared to Pearls.

Immediate expectations were much higher for pastner than Martin, if you can't recognize that I suggest you be a bit more subjective.
Click to expand...

At least we have a reason for the double-standard. Memphis is a better program, and thus better situated to recruit and get to the dance?

I'm not sure every UT fan would agree with you, and while I think Memphis is historically the much stronger program, the points when Martin and Pastner took over were pretty comparable in my mind.

Both followed possibly the greatest coach in their program's history.

Both came into a roster of experienced 4 star players, but none of those players had been "go-to" guys on their prior teams.

Both landed a star player to join their first year team.

Both missed the tournament, although both we in discussions late into February/ early March.
 
#73
#73
MemphisCanes said:
At least we have a reason for the double-standard. Memphis is a better program, and thus better situated to recruit and get to the dance?

Was a better program, I'm not sure it's as hands down as it was.

I'm not sure every UT fan would agree with you, and while I think Memphis is historically the much stronger program, the points when Martin and Pastner took over were pretty comparable in my mind.

Well I think they would. Cal had memphis in the final four and title game, was a consistent deep tourney team, something Tennessee wasn't.

I don't think it was that comparable, I'm fairly certain pastner didn't walk in with an ongoing investigation. I'm also pretty sure CCM didn't have the benefit of being on the staff and this already having a connection with many recruits at that level.


Both followed possibly the greatest coach in their program's history.

K.

Both came into a roster of experienced 4 star players, but none of those players had been "go-to" guys on their prior teams.

Who was the roster full of experienced 4* guys on tennessees team last year?

Both landed a star player to join their first year team.

K.

Both missed the tournament, although both we in discussions late into February/ early March.
K
Click to expand...

So CCM walked into a worse situation, in a lesser basketball program, that doesn't have a hot bed in its backyard...and yet in year 1 matched Pastners year 1 success. Correct?
 
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#75
#75
bleedingTNorange said:
Nobody said that.

You're asking about meeting expectations...a good way to measure expectations are pre season rankings.

Really? Certainly an indicator, but to use your yardstick, UM would have been expected to be a 2 or 3-seed with their gang of quality freshmen (incl starting PG), a transfer, and Witherspoon. Not realistic expectations; more pipe-dreams.

Memphis has been ranked preseason all 3 of Pastners years, his 2nd year, the one you're trying to compare...I believe they were ranked preseason top 10

Wrong again; 1st yr, they had to go buy basketballs and goals to practice; King Kal left nothing but the bldg. Personnel-wise, not much. Definitely not ranked by anyone except BTO.
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.
 
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