February 5th, 2014

#52
#52
It will be my 32nd birthday!! I hoping for lots of Orange and White gifts! Go Vols
 
#55
#55
They can recruit 10 *****'s or ****'s ALL DAY LONG...........BUT, if they cannto coach them up, scheme well, gameplan well and make adjustments, it does not matter what kind of talent you have. you will be a 6-6 or 7-5 team every year. You can win some games on shear talent alone ie..kentucky Western Kentucky etc.... but those games where you loose them based on how well you scout, practice and adjust that seperates the top 10 program and a BCS champion, well and a little luck
 
#56
#56
What I'm thrilled about, is even if UT loses a few names (which I expect) it's still a heck of a class.
 
#57
#57
Boca Vol said:
I'll save my celebrating for when it translates to W's. They don't hand out hardware in Feb. but it makes it easier to get it down the road.
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Better start warming up. 2015 will be a very good season. It will get even better when we get the new indoor track facility.
 
#59
#59
Look at Dools lackluster recruits these past few years and you know why we suck.

Butch needs warriors and we don't have any to play our schedule. This recruiting class is a step towards future wins.
 
#60
#60
daj2576 said:
Ok. Who has out - recruited Bama over the past 4 years?

Despite of that is Bama typically undefeated?

I'll hang up and listen.
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You're one of the few on this site that actually understands football and what it take to win in this league.
 
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#62
#62
Volteacher said:
They can recruit 10 *****'s or ****'s ALL DAY LONG...........BUT, if they cannto coach them up, scheme well, gameplan well and make adjustments, it does not matter what kind of talent you have. you will be a 6-6 or 7-5 team every year.
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Im_outta_here-3.gif
 
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#63
#63
Volteacher said:
They can recruit 10 *****'s or ****'s ALL DAY LONG...........BUT, if they cannto coach them up, scheme well, gameplan well and make adjustments, it does not matter what kind of talent you have. you will be a 6-6 or 7-5 team every year. You can win some games on shear talent alone ie..kentucky Western Kentucky etc.... but those games where you loose them based on how well you scout, practice and adjust that seperates the top 10 program and a BCS champion, well and a little luck
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Why don't we wait to evaluate until after we have some of those kinds of players OK?
 
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#64
#64
Boca Vol said:
You're out of your mind if you honestly believe this.
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Partly. Coaching does matter. BUT, bad coaches have been known to win titles with good players (Cheesestick at Auburn is an example), but I don't know of any coach who ever won anything with bad players.
 
#65
#65
VolStrom said:
You're one of the few on this site that actually understands football and what it take to win in this league.
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I have been told many things in my life, and been called many names.

That, Sir/Madame, is quite possibly the best thing anyone has ever said about me.

Thank you.

lol
 
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#66
#66
daj2576 said:
Ok. Who has out - recruited Bama over the past 4 years?

Despite of that is Bama typically undefeated?

I'll hang up and listen.
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Good call. Also it's a lot easier to coach up highly talented 4 and 5* talent. If Alabama had not been dominating the recruiting these past years, they would not be as good as they are now.
 
#67
#67
BigOrangeTrain said:
Good call. Also it's a lot easier to coach up highly talented 4 and 5* talent. If Alabama had not been dominating the recruiting these past years, they would not be as good as they are now.
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Not necessarily. If a 5* kid and 2 * kid both have identical attitudes that would be the case. Having a roster of All-stars usually presents a different set of challenges. It takes a special kind of coach to make that work as well.
 
#69
#69
Vol8188 said:
All the hardware Alabama's won, was won on national signing day.
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daj2576 said:
Ok. Who has out - recruited Bama over the past 4 years?

Despite of that is Bama typically undefeated?

I'll hang up and listen.
Click to expand...

I didn't say anyone has out-recruited Bama. I DO say that coaching does play a part. I'm saying it is a combination of recruiting and coaching, not just recruiting.
 
#70
#70
Boca Vol said:
I didn't say anyone has out-recruited Bama. I DO say that coaching does play a part. I'm saying it is a combination of recruiting and coaching, not just recruiting.
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Which is exactly what I am saying, except I am telling you mathematically it is roughly 70/30 talent to coaching.

Take a roster that is the best in the land, and add an average/competant coach and you end up with Bama. Take a step down from that talent wise, and you end up with UGA, take a step down from that talent wise and you end up with aTm. Regardless of legend, aTm has done nothing exceptional that wasn't predicted by talent. You could argue that they beat Bama but Saban typically trends a late season loss to teams running a spread/read option. If Saban is so good, why do those teams wreck his perfect seasons?

Take a roster that is mediocre, add a "great" coach that can scheme, and you end up with Arkansas (Petrino), Franklin (Vanderbilt), Mizzou (Pinkel), Duke (Cutcliffe). I would argue that you should throw Jones at CMU and Cincy into that mix. Jones not only increased recruiting averages over those stops as a general rule (this kicks the "he wins with 'Kelly's kids'" argument right in the balls, as he actually recruits better than Kelly) but he also has averages over his entire coaching career an over-performance of 3.5 games a season (what Franklin has done for the past 2 years, Jones has averaged for 7).

Those kind of coaches are the exception. Too often people extrapolate from the exception to form a rule (that is why many people make the argument that coaching matters as much as, if not more than talent. They see guys like these, (or their mirrored opposite like Dooley/Kiff/Brown) without understanding that there are roughly 90 other teams who are performing exactly as talent predicts.

And the most dumbfounding argument possibly ever used on any message board, or on any radio talk show, or anywhere in the known universe is that the SEC is somehow "different," and requires a specific type of coach. No, the SEC is great because of talent, the key is to find coaches who can not only utilize talent but continue to improve on incoming talent. There is no "magic" system in the SEC that is invisible to other conferences, in fact the SEC is transitioning from defense to more offensive heavy schemes. Why? An influx of coaches who show that those schemes (spread/read option) work. If the SEC is magical, those schemes wouldn't work. My hypothesis on Jones is very simple: If he can win games in any conference, beginning with bottom tier conference talent, he can win in any conference when he gets better talent than his competition. That is probably a pretty good rule of thumb.
 
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#71
#71
totally agree with you daj. Hate the argument that you have to have an SEC guy coaching your team. When CBJ was playing against the awful Big East its not like he was playing with an SEC skilled team, He beat Big East teams with a Big East team. He beat teams with similar (sometimes higher) talent level and he did this with both Cincy and CMU. Coaching is important obviously, but talent often beats coaching. Once he gets the talent level up, which seems to be happening, I believe we will see that he can coach at the SEC level.
 
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#72
#72
daj,

I certainly respect your viewpoints backed with data. I'm not disagreeing with you.

You can't take Bama's roster, toss a ball out on the field, and expect them have a great record without a coach. Just like you can't take a bunch of 1* being coached by Lombardi, Neyland, Bryant, Chip Kelly, and Belichick and have them compete in the SEC.

There is a balance in there that works. Take UK basketball last year, the balance didn't work. Take UT football in 2002 & 2005, the balance didn't work.

As far as Saban losing a late season game, it happens. It's not like Auburn didn't have a roster. Their recruiting (not accounting for the JC QB) has been very good. It was a rivalry game, and it was at AU. Bama had the game in control but let it slip away. Again, it happens.
 
#73
#73
Boca Vol said:
daj,

I certainly respect your viewpoints backed with data. I'm not disagreeing with you.

You can't take Bama's roster, toss a ball out on the field, and expect them have a great record without a coach. Just like you can't take a bunch of 1* being coached by Lombardi, Neyland, Bryant, Chip Kelly, and Belichick and have them compete in the SEC.

There is a balance in there that works. Take UK basketball last year, the balance didn't work. Take UT football in 2002 & 2005, the balance didn't work.

As far as Saban losing a late season game, it happens. It's not like Auburn didn't have a roster. Their recruiting (not accounting for the JC QB) has been very good. It was a rivalry game, and it was at AU. Bama had the game in control but let it slip away. Again, it happens.
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As per usual, we agree and disagree.

I believe that you could take 7 of 10 coaches and give them Saban's roster, and they could do as good as Saban. In fact you could take probably 8 of 10 coaches, because the 3 of 10 others are a mixture of over and under performing coaches, and have them do at least as well. Ultimately relatively few coaches would blow up a season with Saban's roster. Recruiting is where he earns his money.

And late season losses do happen, but there is a pattern of his losses: they come later in the season, and they come against a very specific type of offense. That isn't just random, that is that he has difficulty scheming against certain offensive types. That is not the mark of a great coach, that is the mark of a competent coach who recruits well (in my humble opinion).
 
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#74
#74
daj2576 said:
And late season losses do happen, but there is a pattern of his losses: they come later in the season, and they come against a very specific type of offense. That isn't just random, that is that he has difficulty scheming against certain offensive types. That is not the mark of a great coach, that is the mark of a competent coach who recruits well (in my humble opinion).
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I don't know if it's a pattern, or not. They've lost 3 games in the last 3 seasons. In 2011, they lost 9-6 in OT to LSU.

Granted the loss to aTm and Auburn were similar and aTm put up a ton of points and yards on them this year.

I also wouldn't classify Saban as "competent." I think he's a bit better than that. Richt and Miles are competent.
 
#75
#75
On the whole coach vs recruiting deal i loom at it like this. The school spends roughly $1 mil a year recruiting. Without doing any reseaech I'm guessing only the HC, O Coord and D Coord make more per year than that and maybe not even. This is about par for most programs also. So from a purely economical standpoint recruiting is anywhere from the 2nd to 4th most important part of having a good team.

Now when you add in factors like how much money is spent improving facilities to help recruiting and the fact that some coaches get jobs almost strictly because of their recruiting, I think it is safe to say that bringing in top recruits is universally accepted as the single most imprtant aspect of a good college program.

If you ever want to know the truth of something, follow the money.
 
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